PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

After game reports for PlaDip Diplomacy League games

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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby boldblade » 12 Apr 2018, 20:21

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
boldblade wrote:I'm trying. I badly want to but its a bad time of year for me :(

If there's anything you need to make it happen (family friendly activities to convince the significant other, a roommate to diffuse the cost, transportation, a call to your boss from "totally with the governors office and your business is shut down that week," Belgium) don't hesitate to give me a PM and I can either help you or point you to the people that can!

Haha thanks for this btw. It's purely a timing issue with some potential conflicts that I do not have the power to influence.
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby rd45 » 17 Apr 2018, 19:08

mjparrett wrote:I really hope England and Russia post and explain what annoyed them so much

I've no idea what did it for England, but here's what annoyed me - closing the triangle. Please, never close the triangle.

Let's say that I'm player A. I've learned something from player B, and I mention it to player C. Now, of course I know that players B and C are also talking to each other about whatever. But, if player C is going to close the triangle by repeating what I've said verbatim to player B, who then adopts a haughty tone of faux-outrage in which to tell me how wounded they are and how could they ever be expected to trust me again yadda yadda... Christ. It gets tiresome, let me tell you.

Well, I had that in both ears. Germany and England weren't even the worst for it. Worst of all was Austria, with Turkey a close second.

So, I got to the point fairly early on where everything I said to everyone was being leaked everywhere, and it seemed that talking to people was only making my life harder. From there on, I pretty much gunboated the rest of the game. It went neither better nor worse for me as a result. TBH I've never been happier to see a game end.
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby jimbobicus » 18 Apr 2018, 10:42

rd45 wrote:
mjparrett wrote:I really hope England and Russia post and explain what annoyed them so much

I've no idea what did it for England, but here's what annoyed me - closing the triangle. Please, never close the triangle.

Let's say that I'm player A. I've learned something from player B, and I mention it to player C. Now, of course I know that players B and C are also talking to each other about whatever. But, if player C is going to close the triangle by repeating what I've said verbatim to player B, who then adopts a haughty tone of faux-outrage in which to tell me how wounded they are and how could they ever be expected to trust me again yadda yadda... Christ. It gets tiresome, let me tell you.

Well, I had that in both ears. Germany and England weren't even the worst for it. Worst of all was Austria, with Turkey a close second.

So, I got to the point fairly early on where everything I said to everyone was being leaked everywhere, and it seemed that talking to people was only making my life harder. From there on, I pretty much gunboated the rest of the game. It went neither better nor worse for me as a result. TBH I've never been happier to see a game end.

I can sympathise with this.... in my round 1 game there was a huge amount of leaking too - and even fabricating of messages. It just creates an absolute mess and sadly those people who engage in this often seem to gain an advantage from doing so. In the short term at least. Personally when somebody leaks information to me, I view them with suspicion... either they are telling me lies or they are betraying somebody else by passing that info to me. Furthermore, if they are leaking info from somebody else, why should I believe they won't do the same with my messages? However I guess my views are in the minority here and most people are much more grateful when receiving leaked info.
mjparrett - another game with you and a huge amount of leaking then! I know you're happy to engage these tactics - both leaking and fabricating messages. But I thought that greggybear was a much worse offender. By the sounds of it, you've found other people like that here too.
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby mjparrett » 18 Apr 2018, 10:50

haha! as he mentions it wasn't me doing it; I was doing the usual "I have heard so and so", but certainly didn't have time with Russia to do any full time leaking or fabricating. He just went gunboat.

Now I know some of you don't like the leaking. But it really is part of the game. As you said yourself, you are talking to others, and some of that will always be "I heard so and so wants to attack you/help you/kill me". Now it might be true, it might be a lie and it might be a bit of both. That just IS the game to a large extent.

The difference @JimB is that you gritted your teeth through. I haven't counted how many messages we echanged but it was A LOT. rd45 just went gunboat.

Also, if people are doing this and you don't like it, use it to your advantage. Write a message to Austria (in this case if you think he was the worst offender). Tell him anything - preferably gibberish but something really juicy about say Italy. Then write to Italy and say "Ive just sent this pack of lies to Austria - if he forwards it all on to you then you know he is not to be trusted - he is also forwarding all your messages to me! etc. If you do that with 2 or 3 others, someone will likely write back and say "Shit yeah - Austria is a leak. I don't like that. Lets get him". And you have an ally.

Apologies as that isn't meant to sound patronising. You are a PDL 1 player with clearly some tactical savvy. But the difference (imo) between rd45 and JimBobicus is exactly that. While it frustrated him, JimB turned a lot of it to his advantage. rd45 didn't.

But having said all that, genuine thanks for explaining and I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game. At least you have posted why other than just moaning about stuff. I'd love to hear from GPD as well but other than slagging me off for getting a draw, I don't think we will (lets see if this baits him!!)
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby GPD » 18 Apr 2018, 10:53

mjparrett wrote:haha! as he mentions it wasn't me doing it; I was doing the usual "I have heard so and so", but certainly didn't have time with Russia to do any full time leaking or fabricating. He just went gunboat.

Now I know some of you don't like the leaking. But it really is part of the game. As you said yourself, you are talking to others, and some of that will always be "I heard so and so wants to attack you/help you/kill me". Now it might be true, it might be a lie and it might be a bit of both. That just IS the game to a large extent.

The difference @JimB is that you gritted your teeth through. I haven't counted how many messages we echanged but it was A LOT. rd45 just went gunboat.

Also, if people are doing this and you don't like it, use it to your advantage. Write a message to Austria (in this case if you think he was the worst offender). Tell him anything - preferably gibberish but something really juicy about say Italy. Then write to Italy and say "Ive just sent this pack of lies to Austria - if he forwards it all on to you then you know he is not to be trusted - he is also forwarding all your messages to me! etc. If you do that with 2 or 3 others, someone will likely write back and say "Shit yeah - Austria is a leak. I don't like that. Lets get him". And you have an ally.

Apologies as that isn't meant to sound patronising. You are a PDL 1 player with clearly some tactical savvy. But the difference (imo) between rd45 and JimBobicus is exactly that. While it frustrated him, JimB turned a lot of it to his advantage. rd45 didn't.

But having said all that, genuine thanks for explaining and I'm sorry you didn't enjoy the game. At least you have posted why other than just moaning about stuff. I'd love to hear from GPD as well but other than slagging me off for getting a draw, I don't think we will (lets see if this baits him!!)

I'm watching you! :P
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby rd45 » 18 Apr 2018, 11:37

mjparrett wrote:But the difference (imo) between rd45 and JimBobicus is exactly that. While it frustrated him, JimB turned a lot of it to his advantage. rd45 didn't.

I don't know what happened in your other game, or how jimbobicus flipped it around. Fair play to anyone who can do that. Sometimes, even I can do it. But this time, I just couldn't be bothered with it. It turned me right off the game. I'm not saying it was big or clever to go gunboat. Only that I didn't see any other way forward. If that's a failing on my part, I'll own it.
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby mjparrett » 18 Apr 2018, 12:23

Haha - vaguely creepy GPD. Glad to see you still here and smiling though :)

rd45 - not saying it is a definitive failing. Different tactics work for different people and in different games. In this game though it certainly didn't help you. My example above is just one way to flip it round. And sounds like you can do it sometimes, its just you weren't feeling it in this game. A shame, and I hope your round 3 game treats you better.

I must admit I thrive on the whole deceit, lies and leaking stuff. I'm not saying that I am good at it, just that I really enjoy it. And yeah there is frustration when you are the one being played. But when some orders are resolved and everyone has done as you anticipated... great feeling. The game for me is all about 1901-3; those early deals/stabs, and trying to get a handle on things. Maybe it is because I am better at that than the end game!
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby GPD » 18 Apr 2018, 13:04

mjparrett wrote:Haha - vaguely creepy GPD. Glad to see you still here and smiling though :)

rd45 - not saying it is a definitive failing. Different tactics work for different people and in different games. In this game though it certainly didn't help you. My example above is just one way to flip it round. And sounds like you can do it sometimes, its just you weren't feeling it in this game. A shame, and I hope your round 3 game treats you better.

I must admit I thrive on the whole deceit, lies and leaking stuff. I'm not saying that I am good at it, just that I really enjoy it. And yeah there is frustration when you are the one being played. But when some orders are resolved and everyone has done as you anticipated... great feeling. The game for me is all about 1901-3; those early deals/stabs, and trying to get a handle on things. Maybe it is because I am better at that than the end game!

FWIW, I found this game frustrating as well. I am not a fan of the constant stabbing, and don't think it is good diplomacy. I get lured into it by Germany too many times, and should have stuck with France when I had the chance. I prefer a strong alliance early on, and that could have been me and France. Germany and Russia both seemed untrustworthy, and France was initially attacking me with Germany, so I did well to get out of that, but let myself get suckered. I must say I also find it hard to work out in some games why a player that gets stabbed multiple times (e.g. France in this one) seems to make a decision to go against one or the other of the culprits. I think the worse the stab, or the later the stab (most recent) seems to be the one who suffers the consequences. Which happened to be me in this instance. :(

To respond to an earlier comment - I didn't stop communicating. Only with Germany. I offered to king make France but he didn't take advantage. Again, I thought this was France settling too easily for a three way, when he could have got close to a solo if he had taken me up on it. France's comments welcome.

Still pragmatic about the game. Trying to learn from it. I still think the draw was premature. Will still continue in the league, and try to do better in the last game. :mrgreen:
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby greggybear » 18 Apr 2018, 18:39

jimbobicus wrote:But I thought that greggybear was a much worse offender. By the sounds of it, you've found other people like that here too.


My name keeps popping up! Jim... Jimbo... Jimbob... not sure what you like being called... I don't go into a game intending to leak messages or fabricate them, but I also don't go in with a prearranged set of handicaps for myself. If a message needs leaking, I'll leak it. If said message doesn't say what I want it to say, I'll change it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but desperate times can call for desperate measures.

The game can be a lot of fun if you let it. Or you can rip all the fun out and turn it into something it isn't. In my opinion, that's what your policy does. Obviously your opinion of my play isn't much better, though...

Either way, thanks for the name drop. It's always nice to be in the public eye.
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Re: PDL 1. Round 2 Game 2. AAR

Postby jimbobicus » 19 Apr 2018, 01:52

greggybear wrote:
jimbobicus wrote:But I thought that greggybear was a much worse offender. By the sounds of it, you've found other people like that here too.


My name keeps popping up! Jim... Jimbo... Jimbob... not sure what you like being called... I don't go into a game intending to leak messages or fabricate them, but I also don't go in with a prearranged set of handicaps for myself. If a message needs leaking, I'll leak it. If said message doesn't say what I want it to say, I'll change it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but desperate times can call for desperate measures.

The game can be a lot of fun if you let it. Or you can rip all the fun out and turn it into something it isn't. In my opinion, that's what your policy does. Obviously your opinion of my play isn't much better, though...

Either way, thanks for the name drop. It's always nice to be in the public eye.

Whichever name you prefer... it's all fine by me :)
Yes, we have very different opinions on how the game should be played with regards to leaking. From my point of view, I respect your right to leak/fabricate messages if that's how you want to play the game. But I just don't think it should be a good strategy. After a while, people should become wise to your tricks and stop trusting you. I speak here as a reformed liar... when I first started playing the game, I'd lie like you wouldn't believe - and even now, if I wanted to, I expect I could be just devious as anyone. But I just don't think that's a good strategy. As for enjoyment... now that I play essentially a pretty honest game, I've had to rely on other skills to get my edge - like good long term strategic planning - which make you think about the board much more deeply and I think make the game more fun.
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