Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

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Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby john_churchill » 28 May 2020, 03:48

Could, for arguments sake, England shuffle a fleet into the Barents Sea with Norway and St Pertersburg occupied and, supporting the attack from either Norway or St.P attack it with it's own fleet in the Norwegian Sea and sink it, allowing it to be reconstituted as an army ? England is likely to find itself with a surfeit of boats prior to launching a full scale attack and, as I progress through this, it crossed my mind. North Africa is another candidate for such fratricide and actually the more appropriate if I have a Mediterranean armada .
I would guess the answer to be yes.
As a secondary question, have you ever seen this done, and if so was it ultimately successful, i.e. did it result in a win ? To execute it you have to tie up 4 units (5 in North Africa) in a remote corner of the board, so it's questionable if it's ever worth doing in practice. But it would result in a tank suddenly popping up in London.
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Re: Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby Solar Flare » 28 May 2020, 03:52

No, and no. In that order.
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Re: Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby john_churchill » 28 May 2020, 03:59

Thanks. So to clarify, even if it's boxed in by other stuff, blue on blue isnt allowed, you cant attack your own armies, even if you are French.
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Re: Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby ruffdove » 28 May 2020, 04:18

Follow up: can you support someone else's unit in dislodging yours?

So from the example: F-NOR is French, F-BAR is English, and F-Nor is English. Can Nor support NOR to BAR and dislodge it?
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Re: Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby jay65536 » 28 May 2020, 04:47

The way the question in the OP is phrased, there are three things worth pointing out.

1. In general, when your unit is dislodged, you always have the option of destroying it. You do not need to make sure you have no valid retreats.

2. There is a series of rules concerning prohibition on self-dislodgement. By rule, you cannot make a move that dislodges your own unit, and you cannot issue a support that would cause your own unit to be dislodged. (You also cannot cut a support being given by one of your own units.) So the scenario in the OP cannot happen as described.

3. Although you cannot dislodge yourself, you can in fact ask an ally to do it for you. This is a tactic well-known to advanced players and one that you will see occasionally in games.
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Re: Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby john_churchill » 28 May 2020, 06:41

So asking a friend is presumably for the purpose I am referring to, otherwise you would just move to the retreating province. I didnt realise you can always destroy. So you get an ally to zap you and you can reappear next build back at base, in a different form if you wish.
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Re: Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby adebruyn666 » 28 May 2020, 08:05

One advanced rule worth noting. You CAN support a unit that tries to dislodge one of your own units. The order is perfectly valid. It will NEVER succeed to dislodge your unit, but it will count to bounce an attacking unit that tries to, if necessary.

It's a useful rule to know when you want to defend a territory, but the unit is that territory is ordered to move.
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Re: Can you sink your own fleet, or destroy your own army

Postby jay65536 » 28 May 2020, 19:23

john_churchill wrote:So asking a friend is presumably for the purpose I am referring to, otherwise you would just move to the retreating province.


Since this is supposed to be a rules thread, not a tactics thread, I don't want to get too far into the weeds, but here are two real-life examples (they occurred in games I've played). One shows that the answer to this quote is "not necessarily"--there is another possible reason you would do this--and the other is to illustrate the point that adebruyn just made about attacking a province that you occupy.

1) As Austria, I had a fleet in the Ionian, Italy had fleets in Tunis and Naples, and Turkey had a fleet in the Aegean and no other fleets bordering Aeg or Eas. I asked Italy to dislodge me from Ionian while I moved Ion-Aeg. What happened in the game was that Turkey blocked my Aegean move--and I retreated Ionian into the Eastern Med! Notice that if I had moved to Eas directly, Turkey could have bounced me which would have prevented me from retreating there; but by getting Italy to give me a retreat, I got "two for the price of one"--either Turkey leaves Aeg (perhaps trying to bounce me from Eas) and lets me in, or Eas is open and I retreat there after the movement phase.

2) I was not any of these countries but saw this happen in a game I played. France had fleets in GoL, Wes, and NAf. Italy had fleets in Tys and Tun. Turkey had a fleet in the Ionian, which was friendly to Italy (helping against France). I/T played the moves Tun-Wes, Tys-Tun, Ion S Tys-Tun. The key point of this tactic is what adebruyn just said: the rule against self-dislodgement only applies when a unit would have been dislodged. So if France tries to support himself to Tunis, the Italian fleet there is a beleaguered garrison; the French attack would bounce the I/T attack, and the rule does not apply.

But what if France plays Wes S GoL-Tys? Then the support from Wes would be cut by the Italian move there, and the rule against self-dislodgement would apply in Tunis: the fleet from Tys has its move invalidated, only because it would have dislodged Tun had it gone as ordered. The fact that the supporting fleet is Turkish is irrelevant to this rule. And in fact, if we switched it so that the fleet moving in was Turkish and the supporter was Italian, the rule would cover the supporting fleet, invalidating the support because it would have caused a self-dislodgement, but only for that reason.
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