PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby jay65536 » 03 Jul 2018, 20:12

Pootleflump wrote:
jay65536 wrote:I was all set to decry the carebear draw, but then I saw the result--this is either a total breakdown (which seems unlikely from an outsider's perspective) or the biggest carebear meta-gaming result I've ever seen. Only once before have I ever seen such total lack of fight in an endgame.

Anyway, now that the game is over, my point was, as of Fall 1908, when the replacement Turkey took over, France appeared to have a losing position, and instead she went on to win.


Hey. Congratulations Pootle. Maybe you just played a decent game of diplomacy and managed to get other people to do what you wanted them to and steered the game to the ending it was. 'Carebear Metagaming' gee thanks.


I was not expecting the subsequent response that it was apparently a total breakdown, not meta-gaming. Seems you did such a number on England (and Germany earlier in the game) that Turkey didn't care to try to reach out after you finally stabbed. So that was quite well-played.

I guess I was just annoyed because after S11 I was hoping to be able to watch a tight, non-stalemated endgame where you would have had a good shot at pulling out the win even if they decided to make you. Instead it just ended! Nothing for me to watch now.
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby mhsmith0 » 03 Jul 2018, 20:17

boldblade wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:Well I take no responsibility for you not getting the spot :P

I was kinda like "eh, I'm kinda busy, and the position I'm taking over sucks, but sure I'll take it since league has been fun so I don't mind" *shrugs*

Can I just blame you anyways? Stokes our rivalry and rivalries are good for th league.


Sure why not
#BlameSmith2018
:P
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby boldblade » 03 Jul 2018, 20:20

mhsmith0 wrote:
Sure why not
#BlameSmith2018
:P


Done.
#BlameSmith2018
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby Pootleflump » 03 Jul 2018, 21:19

jay65536 wrote:I was not expecting the subsequent response that it was apparently a total breakdown, not meta-gaming. Seems you did such a number on England (and Germany earlier in the game) that Turkey didn't care to try to reach out after you finally stabbed. So that was quite well-played.

I guess I was just annoyed because after S11 I was hoping to be able to watch a tight, non-stalemated endgame where you would have had a good shot at pulling out the win even if they decided to make you. Instead it just ended! Nothing for me to watch now.


You need more women in this hobby. In the words of Dr Who, why fight when you can use brains, and the dynamics on the board. That the first public comment was an accusation of metagaming was just depressing.
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby jay65536 » 03 Jul 2018, 21:32

Pootleflump wrote:In the words of Dr Who, why fight when you can use brains, and the dynamics on the board.


Clearly the actual ending was a bigger show of domination than a more spectator-friendly ending would have been.

Although probably the biggest show of domination in the game was the fact that someone quit because he thought there was some kind of collusion going on, and then it ended in a decidedly non-collusive result--a solo. What a thumb in the eye!

Also, P, since I seem to have insulted you earlier, let me apologize by way of a compliment. There is a certain class of player I play with who, if they give you a chance to take them out, you had better take it or else they will make you regret it--and you will only get one chance. The last 3 years of this game show that you should be considered in that category.
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby rd45 » 04 Jul 2018, 04:04

Pootleflump wrote:Hey. Congratulations Pootle.

I once said that all solos are thrown by someone. Little did I know that one day I'd have the opportunity to prove my own theory in such humiliating fashion.

Upthread, mhsmith0 made a surprisingly plausible case that it was he who had thrown this one, but I think we can all agree that I did most of the throwing here. Not to miss a few other honourable mentions - V as Germany certainly did his fair share, WarSmith as Italy had a crucial walk-on part at one stage - and who could forget jimbobicus as the original Turkey, whose performance looked like this game's high water mark of embarrassing failure until I unexpectedly topped it at the finish?

I won't attempt a defence. Nothing I did here will look even remotely defensible from outside the game. Inside the game - well, that was a whole different story of course. Inside the game, I was fully invested in the 17/17 carebear fantasy until the last possible moment. So congratulations to Pootle - you really played me for a fool. Good job.

Doesn't every gullible mark have a sob story? Mine, fwiw, is that I have an anxiety disorder. This game has always messed with my head, but over the past six months or so my mental health has been getting steadily worse - to the extent that I'm awake at 3am writing this shit instead of sleeping. I'd already resolved to take some time away - a long, long time away - to get healthy again. I won't be taking part in PDL4 (sorry Mike, thanks for being cool about it). Until a few hours ago I'd convinced myself that I could manage a staged withdrawal, using PDL3 as a safe & dignified exit - hey, maybe I'd confide my difficulties to a kind ally, confess that I really wasn't capable of managing the necessary cognitive dissonance any longer, see what we could do to bring the game to a graceful end. That didn't quite work out as I intended.

I won't contribute to the AAR, if you don't mind. I'll be taking a break. If I ever played you in a game & you enjoyed it, thanks - I enjoyed it too. If we played and I insulted or offended or lied to you - I'm sorry for that, but I seem to have come off worse for it anyway so I hope you're getting the good karma that you're owed.
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby Pootleflump » 04 Jul 2018, 06:25

Rd, I'm not going to say much in response. I think I'm the last person you want to speak to.

You're not a fool, anything but. You are a lovely, kind, funny, smart guy who's company I enjoy immensely. As games go, this was a memorable one because of the journey we shared. V too, our threesome made me smile, but mostly you.

I always said PlayDip was like the Worlds Coolest Pub with a collection of the smartest, most interesting and entertaining guys. That was certainly the case in this game.

There were three possible endings for me. All three were a reality at different points.

1. Seeing the Western Triple go all the way to a 3WD. V's strategic brilliance, funny stories and kindness, your fantastic subterfuge plot with old Turkey to break the stalemate. That alliance was genius and seeing it all the way through seemed like a fitting end.

2. Honouring our game long 17/17 pact. That was also a reality right up to the final deadline. Sharing a win with someone who had become a good friend. The person I had the greatest connection with on the board.

3. Stealing the solo to respect the game and all the other players who'd been stabbed and excluded from our agreements. I've long been criticised on PlayDip for my carebear 2WD endings.

Did I make the right choice this time? Maybe. Maybe not. I have to live with that.

I'm sorry it hurt. I'm sorry you're up at 3am writing posts. I'm most sorry we've lost a friendship, if we have - and I really, really hope we haven't. I'm sorry it's contributed to your anxiety and wasn't the end you visualised.

This game does mess with your head. For all of us. It's really tough psychologically. We all need breaks from it. Look after yourself. Be kind to yourself. Get well. You have a lot of friends here. We'll miss you loads and look forward to your return.

I'm always your friend and more than anything I hope we stay in touch. It might not feel like it just now but I'm always here for you. If I've lost a valued and special friend through my choices then that's saddest of all and I will most certainly have made the wrong decision. I hope not.

Hugs for now.

Pootle.
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby rd45 » 04 Jul 2018, 08:30

Pootleflump wrote:Did I make the right choice this time? Maybe. Maybe not.

That right there is pretty much the reason why I'm leaving. I don't need to spend any more of my life in an environment where that choice - shall I fuck over a friend in order to win a game? - is even a thing. I don't need it in my life. Neither my mental health nor my definition of friendship is anywhere near flexible enough for me to deal with that any longer.
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby jimbobicus » 04 Jul 2018, 10:32

These last 2 posts I think show my problem with the game:
Pootleflump wrote:There were three possible endings for me. All three were a reality at different points.

1. Seeing the Western Triple go all the way to a 3WD. V's strategic brilliance, funny stories and kindness, your fantastic subterfuge plot with old Turkey to break the stalemate. That alliance was genius and seeing it all the way through seemed like a fitting end.

2. Honouring our game long 17/17 pact. That was also a reality right up to the final deadline. Sharing a win with someone who had become a good friend. The person I had the greatest connection with on the board.

3. Stealing the solo to respect the game and all the other players who'd been stabbed and excluded from our agreements. I've long been criticised on PlayDip for my carebear 2WD endings.

Did I make the right choice this time? Maybe. Maybe not. I have to live with that.

This is very easy to answer... you made the right choice! Furthermore, I don't even see how this should be a dilemma.
You know we didn't get on for various reasons throughout the game - some of which you touched on here. I especially objected to you disclosing your identity from the start of the game so that you could then
a) flirt with other participants.
b) play on your past carebear reputation (even including pointing to particular games where you had been a carebear). Apart from anything else, allowing people to employ this tactic I think can have major metagaming consequences at could then be a player's interests to act as a carebear in one game precisely so that they can use that reputation to that advantage in a future game.
However, now that you have soloed, I will congratulate you on that... well played. In my opinion, England and Germany should have made themselves harder for you to stab them - but that's their fault not yours.

rd45 wrote:
Pootleflump wrote:Did I make the right choice this time? Maybe. Maybe not.

That right there is pretty much the reason why I'm leaving. I don't need to spend any more of my life in an environment where that choice - shall I fuck over a friend in order to win a game? - is even a thing. I don't need it in my life. Neither my mental health nor my definition of friendship is anywhere near flexible enough for me to deal with that any longer.

This post speaks volumes about our different ways of playing. Why do we need to make everything so personal all the time? We all entered the game as individuals. We should all leave the game as individuals. Perhaps you might form in-game friendships with players - although personally I don't look to do so. But never should you let that interfere with how you play the game. If you get on particularly well with someone, then maybe arrange to meet them in RL and go for drink or something together after the game. But don't let it interfere with the game. And to be frank, if I was in your position and had formed a friendship with somebody who then didn't stab me purely because of our friendship, I wouldn't feel like I deserved the 2 way draw. I'd find it really quite patronising.

Anyway, I hope you take the time needed to get better. I'm taking a bit of time off from this game too.
Last edited by jimbobicus on 04 Jul 2018, 15:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: PDL - Round 3 viewers lounge

Postby mjparrett » 04 Jul 2018, 14:32

Wow. What a few pages of reading!

I'm not going to add much because I wasn't in the game. I'll say a few things though:

@rd45. No worries at all; you had the decency to play your game out and contact before round 4. I just hope everything is ok in RL and you can walk back to a diplomacy game again in the future.

@Pootle. Well played. Don't agonise over it. You weren't to know the effect it would have on people and you have done nothing wrong. Let's be honest, most people who are highly ranked have probably taken someone on a 17/17 ride before stabbing at the death and upsetting them. It is a brutal game, it is tough. But that IS the game and you have played very well to achieve it against a top class field. I salute you. The league table will be updated soon, and you can claim your prize whenever you want....

M
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