AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

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AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby sinnybee » 03 May 2014, 22:12

Game 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2 is the second of 22 PDVT Phase 1 games to finish.

ImageImageColesD earned 48 points in game A2: 3way DRAW 30 Turkey 13 Sweden 5
ImageImageMajor B earned 44 points in game A2: 3way DRAW 30 Italy 13 Yugoslavia 1
ImageImageRicechrisp earned 41 points in game A2: 3way DRAW 30 Britain 9 Spain 2
ImageImageAntigonos earned 0 points in game A2: Germany 0 Rumania 0
ImageImageGhostEcho earned 0 points in game A2: France 0 Greece 0
ImageImagesimblanco earned 0 points in game A2: Poland 0 Egypt 0
ImageImageTarakashka earned 0 points in game A2: USSR 0 Czechoslov. 0
Their scores are also here.

Congratulations to all 7 players for not surrendering!

Game created 24 March (25 Mar in GMT +1), started 26 March, and finished 1 May (2 May in GMT +1).
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby Antigonos » 03 May 2014, 23:04

It was an interesting game if ultimately frustrating for me personally. It confirmed two impressions that I have formed during my limited Versailles playing experience.

The first is that the luck of the minor power draw can be quite significant an uneven. Having an adjacent minor is a real bonus as is having one positioned against a a major opponent as did Turkey and Sweden. But this still does nothing to diminish the skill that the respective players demonstrated in using what they had and in then case of Italy having a near perfect sense of when to stab an ally. Having a minor at the opposite end of the map is frustrating though it might feel different if one had a distant Sweden or Spain or even Egypt which all have more breathing space and opportunities to grow. I will be curious to see the comparative survival rates for the seven minors once there is a sufficient sample of finished games.

My second impression is that the nation most transformed by Versailles is Italy who may be the major with the best starting position even though he lacks an automatic first year gain of a supply center.

I would be interested in any players critique of my own performance however painful it may be.

I congratulate the winners. I never played any of you before and am pleased to have had the chance now.
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby GhostEcho » 04 May 2014, 01:33

Only two comments. Wait, three.

So far in my Versailles games I've found it a very frustrating variant. The imperfect information doesn't play to my personal style/preferences very well.

I thought I was doing okay in this game... except that I managed to screw up early. I was using my minor to feed Italy anti-German information early, but overdid it - despite the fact that everything I passed along absolutely was said to me - and Italy was convinced my minor was lying. Maybe I should have revealed the minor, but I didn't expect Italy to actually go after me.

Which brings up the last point - Italy suckered me (on the minor side) completely, telling me he wanted to wipe Yugoslavia out, and playing Yugoslavia as very aggressive diplomat. Just about everybody wanted Yugoslavia gone, but I don't think anyone realized Italy was the associated major. If he'd been honest, I feel like this game could have turned out very differently at least for me.
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby Antigonos » 04 May 2014, 02:04

Reading GhostEcho's post makes me realize that I had even less of chance than I thought. I tried to work with France after the first year (as I remember it without looking it up) but it seems that he worked during the same period to undermine me with Italy. Given that Britain was an enemy throughout the game I was certainly doomed when Italy did his well time stab.

One more point, I do not remember saying particularly anit-italian things to France as he seems to say. I would check this out by looking at the messages but one of the major flaws of the site is that post game the messages sent "box" no longer tells you to whom a given message is sent. I have always found this to be a real pain in the ass.
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby simblanco » 04 May 2014, 10:30

Antigonos wrote:The first is that the luck of the minor power draw can be quite significant an uneven. Having an adjacent minor is a real bonus as is having one positioned against a a major opponent as did Turkey and Sweden. But this still does nothing to diminish the skill that the respective players demonstrated in using what they had


Agree! Congratulations to ColesD, Major B and Ricechrisp. They played their minors well, deceived us and deservedly shared the draw. If only I knew Sweden was Turkey... Still, I'd have liked to see a Turkish solo. He did a good diplomacy, fooled me many times and he could have easily reached 20 centres next year, with a couple more possible the following one, but I see why he did not feel like trying. Britain should have indeed stabbed Turkey in Sweden during the mid-game to limit the solo risk, but since he survived and i got kicked out I don't feel like giving advices ;) Congratulation again to the survivors and to the rest of the board, all players were good diplomats.

Antigonos wrote:My second impression is that the nation most transformed by Versailles is Italy who may be the major with the best starting position even though he lacks an automatic first year gain of a supply center.


I agree on this too. Italy in Versailles has his back more covered and a power to expand like in 1900. It will be interesting to compare the stats of both variants.

About my game. Poland and USSR seems to me they have always to fight. The only way they can be at peace is USSR expanding only towards Scandinavia or focusing to kick out Turkey, but it does not look feasible. And even if USSR moves like that and succeeds, Poland struggling in Central Europe will be the next easy target. I think the relationship cannot be positively resolved and far more complicated than Italy/Austria in Classic. I'll check some Versailles games on the site to see what happened there. Germany/Poland on the other hands seems like Germany/Austria in Classic. They can move in opposite direction and keep a good DMZ between them without much risk.
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby Antigonos » 04 May 2014, 14:49

simblanco wrote:
Antigonos wrote:The first is that the luck of the minor power draw can be quite significant an uneven. Having an adjacent minor is a real bonus as is having one positioned against a a major opponent as did Turkey and Sweden. But this still does nothing to diminish the skill that the respective players demonstrated in using what they had


Agree! Congratulations to ColesD, Major B and Ricechrisp. They played their minors well, deceived us and deservedly shared the draw. If only I knew Sweden was Turkey... Still, I'd have liked to see a Turkish solo. He did a good diplomacy, fooled me many times and he could have easily reached 20 centres next year, with a couple more possible the following one, but I see why he did not feel like trying. Britain should have indeed stabbed Turkey in Sweden during the mid-game to limit the solo risk, but since he survived and i got kicked out I don't feel like giving advices ;) Congratulation again to the survivors and to the rest of the board, all players were good diplomats.

Looking back I feel that I knew most of the major -minor pairs by the end of the second term. But it seems to me that this matter was discussed less than in my first Versailles game (which is drawing to a close with a likely Italian solo). I agree in wishing Britain had stabbed Sweden and in acknowledging that Britain's choices cannot be second guessed given that he was in the draw trio.

Antigonos wrote:My second impression is that the nation most transformed by Versailles is Italy who may be the major with the best starting position even though he lacks an automatic first year gain of a supply center.


I agree on this too. Italy in Versailles has his back more covered and a power to expand like in 1900. It will be interesting to compare the stats of both variants.

So far I have a finished game with Italy in the draw trio, an Italy trying for a sole in or near end game and a game where Italy is fighting to survive in early mid-game. In the first two Italy did the critical stabbing against France twice and (against Germany once which is surprising when compared to standard Diplomacy but not surprising when one looks at the changed map with a Swiss supply center and an Austrian one. This seems to open up possibilities for Italy and vulnerabilities for Germany and France.

I would argue that France needs to prevent an Italian -British alliance and Germany needs to either work closely and quickly with France and perhaps USSR to deal with Britain or work out an alliance with Britain. Of course the identity of the major -minor pairs has a big impact on the choices made and the ability to implement them
.

About my game. Poland and USSR seems to me they have always to fight. The only way they can be at peace is USSR expanding only towards Scandinavia or focusing to kick out Turkey, but it does not look feasible. And even if USSR moves like that and succeeds, Poland struggling in Central Europe will be the next easy target. I think the relationship cannot be positively resolved and far more complicated than Italy/Austria in Classic. I'll check some Versailles games on the site to see what happened there. Germany/Poland on the other hands seems like Germany/Austria in Classic. They can move in opposite direction and keep a good DMZ between them without much risk.


I agree about Poland in relation to USSR and Germany. Poland and USSR can fight from the beginning or start up at a later point but I think a fully stable and equal alliance is difficult to develop or maintain. Poland, as an ally of USSR, will tend to become the vulnerable junior partner as his units become the shock troops for a USSR expansion. Germany and Poland do seem to replicate the Germany -Austria standard Diplomacy relationship. It is unproductive for them to fight but they are more like allies than friends as they face different problems in opposite directions. But I have to wonder if a more active cooperation in Scandinavia and in guarding against Italian expansion into Central Europe would be worth more effort than Poland and I gave it in this game. Of course as it turned out Poland had his hands full with USSR and then Turkey-Sweden and I trusted Italy too much while I fought Britain.
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby Ricechrisp » 04 May 2014, 16:25

That was a great game everyone!

Actually I agree with all of you. I probably should have stabbed Sweden at some point. However, due to the nature of our alliance, if I had attacked him then I would have faced Turkey and Italy. I didn't really want to risk this even though I was worried about the Turkish solo.

Another key error I made was not targeting France from the start. If I remember correctly, I tried to get France to help me take out Germany early on. Given my major/minor combination, defeating France would have proved to be much easier.

All in all, mistakes were made. But I greatly enjoyed playing with all of you and congratulations to my allies, Major B and ColesD! Hopefully I will see you again later in the tournament!
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby ColesD » 04 May 2014, 16:56

The curious thing about this game for me is that looking back, I'm more proud of my play to get my minor to 5 SCs than to get my major to 13! I had to do a lot more crucial negotiation and well-timed stabbing with Sweden than with Turkey. Despite virtually agreeing to draw from the start (Italy approached me with an offer of a cast-iron alliance in turn 1, and even named Britain as a possible future ally, and never broke faith once), I did spend some time at the end seriously considering going for the solo. I eventually decided against it, as I felt against good play (and Italy and Britain were good players), the best I could manage was Beograd and Hungary, and I'd lose Oslo in the process, leading to Sweden being potentially compromised. I couldn't see myself getting the 4 more I needed to solo, and wasn't going to attack my allies unless I was sure. I'd be interested to know if others think I made a mistake, though. Did I miss an opportunity here or not?

In general, I agree that Poland and USSR seemingly having to fight is one of the few problems with Versailles, and as both Turkey and Sweden it worked massively to my advantage as I was able to use their conflict to boost my own position. Italy is strengthened in Versailles yes, and that's a good thing, but Italy/Yugoslavia is a seriously powerful combination, and that was seen in this game (I've played it before myself, and soloed). He was the best ally on the board to have, and I was fortunate in that regard.
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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby Major B » 05 May 2014, 00:24

I also want to start out by thanking everyone for a great game. I would have enjoyed it immensely even if I had not ended up part of the winning draw but of course that makes it even sweeter. Sorry for the delay in posting here but I am in the Army and we've been training over the weekend.

GhostEcho, I stabbed Greece because your comments made me suspect it was your minor and I didn't want to be caught between the two. So yes, you made me delay attacking Egypt by your comments but it wasn't exactly for the reason you thought.

I agree that Italy has an advantage in Versailles based on looking through how Italy is doing in the other tournament games but I hope I get some credit for playing well too. I had one early idea that seemed to pay off well, playing a belligerent Yugoslavia to draw attention away from what Italy was doing. I also admit to at least my fair share of luck as the attack on France and Germany coincided with France's decision to commit against Spain. I also agree that conflict between USSR and Poland is almost a requirement. I played USSR in an earlier game and found trying to work around Poland to be almost impossible even with their help.

Thanks Ricechrisp and ColesD for being such great allies. I think we maintained a serious advantage through the game by not revealing how close our ties were. Everyone was hoping for us to turn on one another right to the end. More on that thought but first, Coles D you should be very proud of expanding Sweden out to 5 centers. I am very impressed by that accomplishment. I was also very worried there near the end that you were going to try for a solo. I thought I could stop you as long as Britain had my back but nothing is sire when the margin of victory is that close. One mistake and it could have been over. I have taken that as a lesson learned into my B Game where I have arranged an agreement for a 16-14-13 split of the SCs before declaring the draw. I hope that reduces tension as we approach the last turn.

Again, thanks to all of you for a great game and I do hope to see you in another game.

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Re: AAR: 79222. PD Versailles Tournament Game A2

Postby GhostEcho » 05 May 2014, 21:13

Antigonos wrote:Reading GhostEcho's post makes me realize that I had even less of chance than I thought. I tried to work with France after the first year (as I remember it without looking it up) but it seems that he worked during the same period to undermine me with Italy. Given that Britain was an enemy throughout the game I was certainly doomed when Italy did his well time stab.

One more point, I do not remember saying particularly anit-italian things to France as he seems to say. I would check this out by looking at the messages but one of the major flaws of the site is that post game the messages sent "box" no longer tells you to whom a given message is sent. I have always found this to be a real pain in the ass.


See, I wanted Switzerland without a fight so I could go after Spain, but you were such a pain in the ass about it that I decided to throw everything at you and it ended up doing both of us in. Not a real credit to my diplomatic skills, granted, but I was also short on options. You hedged so much I had to commit to taking Switz. by force, leaving me not enough to actually force my way into Spain's territory.

A lot of the game seems to hang on which minors do well in 1901. A minor that picks up a build usually has a ton of influence on the game and is hard to dislodge, while a minor that gets knocked out means that much more room for nearby majors to maneuver. I'd have needed an ally to knock Spain off the board, and neither Italy nor (obviously) England would give me support.
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