PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

After game reports for PlaDip Diplomacy League games

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PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby Rotsu » 12 Apr 2018, 05:20

ENGLAND (Rotsu)
FRANCE (b1wein)
ITALY (scdavid)
GERMANY (rickguill)
AUSTRIA (TimKB) 2 Way Draw
TURKEY (TugboatDiplomacy) 2 Way Draw
RUSSIA (Blackdiamond)

Congratulations to our two winners.

Final Map
https://www.playdiplomacy.com/view_imag ... nt_phase=N
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby Rotsu » 12 Apr 2018, 05:34

So, my thoughts can be summed up with two words. Poor Communication. I got a total of less than fifty messages, I sent about one-fifty. I would propose something and be met with agreement and they would help me, then stab me and tell me they thought I was wrong and it was a poor move, and didn't want to tell me to my face. I wanted to cry. I tried to force changes in the board, I tried everything I could, but every time I was just crushed under the heel when I started to have a chance at doing something.

Excellent control by Austria/Turkey, I only got one message from Italy, so have no clue who they are, and Russia was target #1 in the game, so I didn't know him, either.

Germany did lots of doubling back and changing his mind. In 04 he aided me into France so we could take France and challenge Austria/Turkey then stabbed me and told me that it was actually a bad move post stab, losing a total of three units and compromising the front he claimed to be trying to hold with the stab. Very confusing from my end. Felt really fake after 04.

France never really took to my play-style, I tried to play with him before Germany (As England/France is very strong!) and he just said no. The early Western Triple was more important, than a maybe (Falsely, I admit) Traitorous Germany. After getting brushed off, I decided I would just kill him with Germany and split The SC evenly, allowing Austria and Turkey to take Italy in the meanwhile.

France is a decent fellow, though I didn't understand some of his moves, but then no one told me anything of import after 03.

Austria honestly could have tried for a solo, and had a good chance at it, but decided not to go for it. Honestly, he and Turkey ran the board, and after 1904 were the only people that entertained my offers, even if they were 90% me trying to get Turkey to do a long ranger E/T alliance.

Turkey always listened and responded at least, and he always gave serious consideration to my ideas, before turning me down in favor of A/T.

This game for me felt like I was playing Gunboat and everyone else was playing full, in the end. Not very fun. Couple that with my playing England, who I have a very hard time playing in any way, well... I just hope to have better luck next time...
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby TugboatDiplomacy » 12 Apr 2018, 07:11

So I've never written an AAR before but as one of the final draw-ers I feel like I should take a stab at it.

As far as I can tell the biggest two driving factors of this game was my alliance with Austria and the relationship between E/F/G. The fact that the triple formed in the early game, and then fell apart at the exact moment that it did, helped me and Austria expand very rapidly, and basically control the board as England said.

I would be interested to hear Austria's thoughts on our relationship and the way this game went. I agonized over the decision to stab but it seemed like it was necessary to prevent you from soloing, and I thought I might have a shot myself. Maybe I still did, and I threw it away, I don't know.

England, I'm sorry to hear the game wasn't very fun for you. I'd been curious to hear from Germany, and France as well, as to why relations between the three of you fell apart so thoroughly.
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby Rotsu » 12 Apr 2018, 07:22

Relations fell apart because they weren't talking about strategy, not really. Just kinda of a "There is the enemy, fight them and don't come near me". I can't stand that. I tried to nudge them to talk to me individually about the other and they both said basically nothing and so I tried to eliminate one of them. It wound up being France because surrendering Italy and gaining two/three SC was worth it in my mind. I did NOT want a 5 way draw, and that what would have happened, or what happened anyways would have happened.

In short I was not inspired by my allies and decided that it would work better if there was only one other person I had to convince.

I think I could have dismantled France with Germany in 04/05 and sacrificed Italy to you in the same time, bringing the game to a war around what would have been Italy. I was then going to propose myself and you betray our allies and go for a duo between us. I was expecting if it got that far that you would stab for a solo, so I was prepared to stab first.

But Germany stabbed me in 04 so I lost that dream, with nary a whisper about why until it was too late. The reason felt fake too. Oh well.
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby TimKB » 12 Apr 2018, 12:16

I will post some of my views on this game later (as Austria) but the relation between EFG kinda handed the game to AT on a silver plattern. Not even trying to cooperate even though AT were steadily progressing/passing stalemate lines.

Regarding why I did not go for a solo. It crossed my mind multiple times, but invading Turkey without any naval support is just hard, so the only time I saw serious chances for success was build 05 and further. Perhaps I should have gone for it at that stage, but being already on 10 points in the league, I was also fine settling for a riskless draw. Even though that stab by Turkey at the end made me kinda worried, as I had absolutely no influence at Germany just throwing the game to Turkey (which might have been better for his own prospects at promotion.

But, 20+10 points is a decent start to the league and sets me in good position for the remaining two games.

Edit: I actually did not accept the first draw proposal because I wanted to keep the chance to go for a solo. After Turkey pounced first, the risk-reward ratio of going on was just not good enough for me, as 20 points is still a major amount.
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby Cliff Dancer » 12 Apr 2018, 19:19

Wow an Austria/Turkey 2-way!? You don't see that one everyday!

Both seemed to work really well together, and capitalize on unresolved family issues in the Western Triangle. Enjoyable to shoot through briefly what seemed like a good game.

England - I'd be curious to know if the stab of France was completely sanctioned by Germany prior to your move to English Channel or whether you brought him around after? And what about the move to Baltic Sea in the Fall of 03? As a German player, that would be concerning. And spring of 05, it appears you could have gotten Germany back on your side if you didn't take Holland. The flip-flopping was a bit strange? A/T were huge by this point!

Germany - Why did you switch sides in Fall of 03? It was obvious that Turkey/Austria seemed very strong at that stage, though obviously there was some distrust still as Turkey didn't support Austria into Warsaw that fall and chose to support himself to hold instead.

Turkey - Fall 1904 builds - Were you forced into this fleet build by Austria? Why not do the same thing with an army for flexibility for a solo run later?

This is a game that shows the power of trust between two countries, and the inability of other nations to band together against a fairly obvious threat due to communication issues. Well played by both Turkey and Austria. I love seeing a Turkish fleet in Norway, that is spectacular ;)

~CliffDancer
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby TugboatDiplomacy » 12 Apr 2018, 20:05

Cliff Dancer wrote:Wow an Austria/Turkey 2-way!? You don't see that one everyday!
Turkey - Fall 1904 builds - Were you forced into this fleet build by Austria? Why not do the same thing with an army for flexibility for a solo run later?


Perhaps I could have gotten away with an army build but I wanted to repair my relationship with Austria after a screw-up so I voluntarily built an army; I had agreed to support him into Warsaw but in a fairly boneheaded mistake forgot to change the order. I think that if I hadn't screwed up some moves in the mid-game (I'm still kicking myself over that turn where me and Germany supported each other into StP) I might have had a shot at the solo, but of course a dozen other things might have played out differently in that scenario.
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby Rotsu » 13 Apr 2018, 00:30

To respond...
Cliff Dancer wrote:
England - I'd be curious to know if the stab of France was completely sanctioned by Germany prior to your move to English Channel or whether you brought him around after? And what about the move to Baltic Sea in the Fall of 03? As a German player, that would be concerning. And spring of 05, it appears you could have gotten Germany back on your side if you didn't take Holland. The flip-flopping was a bit strange? A/T were huge by this point!



Germany had completely agreed to the stabbing of France, and gave no word otherwise until s05 after he stabbed me. I moved Baltic mostly to defend but also to apply pressure so he would help me. In S05 I had lost all hope hope of playing with any other western player and basically sold out to Turkey, who, almost sided with me over Austria. Dang..

I think that covers everything?
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Re: PDL 3. Round 2, #2 AAR

Postby Cliff Dancer » 13 Apr 2018, 01:08

Rotsu,
I am curious to hear from Germany if "applying pressure" was the exact cause of the stab?? I have not typically found that to be a great tool in my persuasion tool belt, but it does have it's place.

Germany,
I hope you can expand on this for my curiosity (pronounced nosy-ness)? :)
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