PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

After game reports for PlaDip Diplomacy League games

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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby mhsmith0 » 18 Mar 2018, 19:44

champinoman wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:48 hour deadlines when on basically every single turn at least one player let it go to the very end completely sapped my ability to really give much of a shit

I was going to have a laugh at this because I almost never hit the finalize button and I'm also in league 2, but then realised that at no point over the 4 rounds do we share a game. How does that work?

The nature of the league is that nit everyone plays everyone, because that’s how the numbers have to play out. I’m not certain we have the single most optimal mix of rands... but I doubt it can be improved much.

Iggy wrote:I would be kind of curious to know how this happened... Seems crazy. I was certain this was ending in a 4 way split...


England got greedy and thought his defensive position was strong enough that he could make my elimination a fair accompli. Austria and turkey were some combination of spooked at the chance he could solo and irritated at him. I think they can speak far better as to why they picked me instead of him than I can... but I’m sure not complaining :P

I SUSPECT that my game long friendship with Germany and demonstrated loyalty there impressed them that I wasn’t gonna stab them if ever I could... and possibly they realized that positionally they could FORCE a stalemate line where I couldn’t hit 18 even if i wanted (whereas England actually had a shot at 18 if they didn’t expel him from Warsaw and Moscow fast enough)... but you’d really have to ask them.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby mjparrett » 18 Mar 2018, 20:11

Just to say - yes not everyone plays everyone. This is mentioned in the fixture thread. I was more concerned by trying to stop people playing each other 3 times which I managed.

If anyone does have a formula that would optimise things (I agree I doubt I have found it) then please get in touch.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby Shyvve » 18 Mar 2018, 20:56

Shyvve, as Germany, chiming in here.

I love playing Germany but I kinda suck at it too! So I had mixed feelings about my country draw here.

During the opening negotiations period France (mhsmith0) seemed a bit too sparse with his comms for my taste. OTOH, England (StarWatcher009) and I seemingly hit it off well and we immediately drew up designs against France from the game start. Significantly, Russia wasn't brought on board with this plan but I did have DMZ's agreed to in Silesia and Prussia.

Anglo-German S01 plans against France did not survive contact with the enemy unfortunately, although England did indeed adhere to the move against France.

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Spring '01
So I've got an Italian tank in Tyr and a Russian tank in Sil. With no support available for my bounced (per agreement) tank in Munich (save my A Den), which is headed to Hol in any event. Wunderbar!

As mhsmith0 discusses in his AAR, EGF quickly form up a triple in reaction. I'm quite grateful to both E and F for that. I won't do a detailed blow-by-blow account here as France covers that thoroughly in his AAR. Instead, I'll just highlight what I thought were the most crucial turns and my thinking at those points.

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Fall '01
Yeah, it gets even worse for me as Austria (Frenchie07001) moves Gal to Boh. I cover Berlin and take Hol and Den to get a build. Russia supports Italy (Don Juan of Austria) into Munich.

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Skipping a bit now to the Spring '03 moves.
Italy gets crunched this set by both Austria and France. I retake Munich. Unfortunately, England snipes Hol from me though. (I'm unsure, but as I write this I'm almost certain England taking Hol was not per agreement). France and I have become very chummy by this point. His tactical suggestions and moral support, and the influence he's exerting upon England in my behalf, are letting me know that going forward I'll be needing to continue to rely on France and just hope for the best from England.
This was the point of the game where, had England not taken Hol, I think the GEF Triple might have been able to turn the tide while the East was still in somewhat disarray. We did have to deal with an Italian army retreating to Ruhr though.

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Spring '04
England takes Den and my "also-ran" fate for this game is pretty much sealed. With England's move of Barents to Norwegian, I'm wondering if an RT+E alliance has just been forged.

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Fall '07
A number of turns have now passed in which, from solely my perspective, I'm just sitting on my three centers with three units (all tanks) and being supported in place by France in Munich. On the F'07 turn things work out where I'm able to move Kie-Hol and grow to a whopping four centers! England, however, didn't care for this much and he would retaliate. I lobbied hard that Germany building was a much more efficient way to project force in the center where the WT needed it. Not sure England saw things the same way though.
Italy's gone by now. Russia goes down to one center on this turn too.


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Fall '08
On the S'08 turn, England reacted to my recent seizure of Hol in F'07 by moving his F Nth to Hel and his F NWG-NTH. So, I knew I was screwed for the F'08 turn. I agree to France taking Munich on this turn to try to limit the gains England will acquire as England moves to eliminate me. England takes Russia's last center too, War.
This was a hugely significant point in the game as I think(?) this was the first 4WD proposal proffered for TAGE. It failed to pass immediately after the F'08 turn had processed and it is my opinion that only England did not accept the draw at this point.
More out of frustration at the draw not passing and England pretty much killing me, I pretty much decide during the builds phase of '08 that I'm going to keep A Ruhr, eliminate my other three units, and just be an agent of chaos. Perhaps I'll end up holding some vital center and get into a draw somehow, someway. This only happens if England can make a credible solo run and FAT don't organize quick enough to stop him.
This also means I have to piss off my steadfast ally France in the coming S'09 turn, by accepting English support into Bel. Which also meant I had to work with the player who'd really stuck it to me more than once during the game. No really good options here.
Had I kept A Ber instead, I'm pretty sure I would have been eliminated in 1909.

The rest of the game is just FAT getting into the MAO, with three fleets to support F MAO, while also steadily reducing England's center count until the 4WD proposals stopped and only FAT 3WD's were being offered. I could have just denied the proposals and seen England lose even more centers but this wasn't all that compelling to me.
There was indeed evidence of Turkish/French miscommunication right towards the end, as Turkey's F MAO kept moving to the Channel while France was instead supporting F MAO to hold. So, this made me wonder if EAT might be up to something.

I really didn't want to vote myself out of a draw. But, I did in fact accept all the draw proposals which I had a chance to vote on. So, someone else was denying them.
Nor did I want to see an EAT form and France get cut out. Without a credible solo threat existing on the board, I knew I'd soon be taken out of the picture anyways. So, I accepted the draw and took my zero points and one measly tiebreaker point.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby mjparrett » 18 Mar 2018, 23:02

League table now updated. Things are tight in League 2!
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby Saturos » 19 Mar 2018, 04:16

At the start of the game I reached out to Russia the most. I wanted to run a juggernaut in this game and let him know.

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Russia told me he was bouncing. But, with the ukraine and siliesia moves it looks clear like he wants to work with Austria more than me. I point out how I kept my word on all my moves and Austria went into Gal. Yet you can see he still chooses him over me going forward.

It also is at this point that Italy tells me some insane line about how "Turkey doesn't usually go to Greece" and then tried to make me an offer where I tab serbia for him and he attacks Austria. I obviously knew it was just a ploy to try and take Greece unopposed.

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I told russia that he could take rum with sev and I would be going to Greece. Instead he brings down Ukraine with support and the AIR is revealed.

It now seems to be Turkey Vs. The World

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Russia has now clearly betrayed any intention he claimed to have to want to work with me. I make a deal with Austria where he supports me into Greece and I will then help him get Rumania. I explain to him how the AIR really has no potential for him, as his entire expansion prospects are about to be through his "allies". He agrees and said he would support me into Greece.

But, of course, he betrays that word and takes Greece.

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This turn I had to play defensive since all three of my neighbors revealed their true intentions of not working with me. However, it seems like Austria figured out that the AIR wasn't a great deal for him, and he stabs Italy. Still, no word about helping/working with me.

Russia began talks to me about when and where to stab Austria. But, he never does it.

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Not much happens. Russia doesn't do anything to Austria. I have to play defensive and wait for the west to do something about AR.

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This turn I play on Italy's want for revenge on Austria and get his help in attacking Greece with a convoy maneuver. Unfortunately Bulg falls.

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I begin long long talks with AR about how we need to band together now before EF runs away with this game. It doesn't take Russia too long to get on board, but Austria ends up taking forever to convince, and still only wants to half commit. I wanted bulgaria back (and russia agreed) in order to get a Fleet out sooner that could take control of ion and springboard my naval campaign. This also would allow B.Sea to get into const sooner as const moves up to bulg. Austria decides he wants to wait on that.

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He finally agreed in the fall, but that meant the B.Sea boat (now in const) is a move behind. Thankfully I get into Ion as France wanted it DMZ'd in an effort to keep me fighting against AR.


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We agree to destroy Rumania so that Russia can get a useful build in the north. The italy campaign is going well.

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I offer to keep my unit going up (into gal), but Russia prefers I go back so I do.

I am pretty much having to outline the entire orders for my whole team. They both claim to be busy and just give me one line replies in agreement to what I suggest. I devise a strategy that should stalemate EGF in the north while we slowly get gains in the south.

I made and sent them these images:
Image Image

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However, Italy gets a bit funky, but the bigger deal is G.O.B gets dislodged. For the plan, it actually isn't a problem at all. The liv unit can be an army or a fleet, so it just has to retreat to liv and disband finland. But, for whatever reason, he decided to destroy the G.O.B fleet and finalize immediately. I have a message in my inbox that he apologizes and it was an error, but the damage was done.

We agreed before this turn I would go back up to rum and actually go into Gal so there was another unit up there.

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Lots of talks with France and Austria before this turn. From bits in messages with France, Germany, and Russia, I get the vibe that England is really after a solo. France tries really hard to get TAR to break apart and one of us to join EGF, but I have no interest in joining with E and my plan was solid for winning with TAR. It was until Russia's destroy-finalize, anyway. I extend offers to France about trying an FAT or FRT to both get to keep one of my allies and cut out E. However, he still loves E at this point and refuses to really try and make anything work. All he will do is offer to stab my allies with some loose promise that EGF (or more likely EF) won't just kill me after A and R. He claims I can make a stalemate line (and is extremely insistent that I can), but I prove to him he is mistaken. In the end, he claims he will never ever make a move to MAO as any sort of deal, so speaking with him is useless.

I recognize that my TAR plan is still possible, but there is a chink in the armor now due to what Russia did. I approach Austria and say outright, hey there is a stalemate line that we can get to and 100% get a 5 way at worst (but very likely 4 way since I doubt they keep G around) if we cut Russia out now. Or, we can try and keep Russia around and still make TAR work but then there isn't a guarantee we can get into the stalemate line still at that point. Austria tells me he would prefer to go for the stalemate line and give up on Russia. So, I move to sev and we start to get into position.

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We continue to get into position. There is nothing anybody can do to stop us, as I have him use boh to bounce out a kamikaze from an angry russia. I give him Rum so we stay even on centers.

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We are now in stalemate position. He builds in vienna and bud, meaning we can no longer lose.
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We demonstrate our stalemate line and realization sets in for the west. England decides he is ready to cut out Germany to bring it down to at least a 4 way.

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England dismantles germany swiftly, and France is apparently on board taking Munich at the same time.

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We move up and France finally sees England for what he is, and joins us to make a FAT. Things are all going according to plan from what I expected the happen after we went into the stalemate line. I tell Austria I am down to go for a two way with him (sincerely, too, I wasn't interested in going for a solo that involved stabbing him) but he isn't very invested in the game. He continues to offer very very little to planning conversations and would just prefer a draw ASAP. I am devising all of the orders still, but now that France is working with us, I finally have someone else contributing tactical ideas.

I also let France know I am willing to send a fleet over to help him, but he really does not want it. However, his only chance of winning required us not to kill him, so I did not understand why he wouldn't go all in on trusting. Regardless of my intentions, it only made sense that he should want the extra boat. But, I honor his wish as we should be able to win without it and I don't feel like rocking the boat.

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Not much changes. I somewhat send him my boat whether he likes it or not, but move out of ion at the same time so he doesn't freak out.

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My boat keeps going; my tactics in the east have now gotten us Warsaw. Moscow will fall next.

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Moscow falls next. My boat goes up into MAO. We have enough fleets there now that England absolutely has no hope unless we start stabbing eachother. Priorities now are prussia and a fleet in picardy.

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We just take a turn to support here.

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I had moscow bounce out finland and baited his stpete unit into liv. This means liv now has to go back to stpete or risk being destroyed. That means liv is ours for free.

We take russia and get the boat into pic. His days are numbered. He asks me multiple times to stab and/or do a two way. But, of course, that would be silly to leave my 3 way where I have no real chance of being stabbed in, to join the most solo-ambitious guy on the board.

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We take liv and kiel.

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France does some crazy stuff randomly. Ignore our agreed upon move with my MAO boat and makes a secret deal with Germany to attack holland. Doesn't really compromise us so whatever.

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Again, France seems drunk. I suggest we attack EC North is likely busy and we can likely take it. He asks if MAO or Brest should lead the attack, I respond that it needs to be MAO since NAO can tap MAO in a brest-led attack. He doesn't do that, though. and we lose MAO. However, bel supported holland and England goes down another build.

I also told Austria I would take rum this year since Kiel was more likely to fall sooner than StPete, and to keep our centers more even. He was fine with it.

I also swing Greece into Alb just for that one guy in public press who complained Albania was still free...

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I was entirely down to remove England and play for the centers. However, I think France was still a bit worried that Austria and I cut him out at some point and Austria pretty much wanted a draw and to be done with the game since year 1. I wasn't interested in spending even more time dragging them along when they both wanted out so badly. At least I was at 9 centers now and they were all at 8, so that was something.

The game ends in a 3way draw. And that is the story of how Turkey Vs. The World turned out to be a win.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby mhsmith0 » 19 Mar 2018, 07:44

Fwiw I knew England for what he was from 1903 at the latest. I was mainly worried early on that “let turkey into MAO to fight england” would become “let r/t or r/a/t into MAO and oh fun now I can’t stop them from killing me and excluding me from the draw”

Agreed that I’d been making drunk level moves in last year. The final phase was inexcusable on my part; fortunately it didn’t matter.

In my defense in general I basically spent all game in a hopeless position of being stuck with an ally (England) who I KNEW wanted to stab me at the first convenient time (a growing western triple is the single best early game board state for England possible [even more so with Germany the weakest of the three and France fully committed in the south], and he threw it all away in 1903/4 for NOTHING), and various opposing alliances that I figured could chop the board without me. I felt like the rabbit in
Whether the bear beats the wolf or the wolf beats the bear, the rabbit always loses.

And it just wore on me.

Fortunately I escaped the jaws of the beasts in the end :)
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby mhsmith0 » 19 Mar 2018, 23:13

btw Turkey, can you talk a bit about why you ended up choosing me for your 3-way instead of England? I remember thinking there was a good chance I'd burned my bridges with you earlier in the game with my... uhh... *AGGRESSIVE* salemanship tactics, and I definitely had thought that E/A/T was concpetually the easiest and quickest alliance to turn into a 3-way draw.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 1. AAR

Postby StarWatcher009 » 20 Mar 2018, 01:48

I'll say this quickly.

Firstly, I have a tendency to massively underestimate people's history with a player as opposed to self interest. I made my moves out of complete self interest, and on the basis that others would do the same. That is a losing strategy, every time.

I always hope for the solo, but I didn't think I could get it until I thought I had a very small chance just after stabbing France. I made two mistakes though.

mhsmith0 wrote:btw Turkey, can you talk a bit about why you ended up choosing me for your 3-way instead of England? I remember thinking there was a good chance I'd burned my bridges with you earlier in the game with my... uhh... *AGGRESSIVE* salemanship tactics, and I definitely had thought that E/A/T was concpetually the easiest and quickest alliance to turn into a 3-way draw.


Firstly this. I think I pissed Turkey off somewhat, so there's that.

Secondly, tactically I missed the plan of fleets through Belgium and Holland to dislodge North Sea when I stabbed. Ultimately that cost me more than anything, and if I had seen it I wouldn't have stabbed.
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