PDL 2. Round 1 Game 2. AAR

After game reports for PlaDip Diplomacy League games

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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 2. AAR

Postby Iggy » 21 Feb 2018, 19:27

nanooktheeskimo wrote:I have no quarrel with drawing in general, to be clear. Most of my games have ended in draws, and I have very few solos to my name. My point is that you *should* be playing for the solo if you think you have the chance for it--I thought Italy had a chance for it or at least to get a two way, but if he didn't see it, then he didn't see it. I thought Germany had a very good chance to solo, but they moved a little too carefully. But, on the other hand, if both Germany and Italy had moved aggressively, then they would've ended up letting Russia or France back in the game and ended up with a fourway instead. Dunno, it's just different philosophies at play I think, but I do also think it's fair to criticize or point out where more ambition could've been shown, especially if the player in question is aiming for a solo (this applies to Germany much more than Italy, since Germany has said he wanted the solo whereas Italy is on record as being more cautious about it).


And yeah, a draw is obviously better than a loss, but it's also not a win. I'm not knocking draws or saying they're bad results, just that they are, at the end of the day, still a draw and not a win.


I would definitely preferred to have soloed. My only real shot to solo would have been to buy into the idea that Turkey, i.e. you, would have really been content to play kingmaker. Are you saying you really would have simply played the role of vassal and let me gain centers elsewhere and then happily handed over your home centers when the time came? Seriously? I don't believe it. Not in game and not now.

Could maybe I have used you more effectively and still kept you in check? Maybe. But realistically, the longer you stayed around, the more of a problem you would have become. I might have had other chances to get toward a solo but even once you were subdued, Germany had the upper hand in the solo race. He was most likely in check and maybe there would have been another door for one of us if things continued and/or if Germany and I had worked things out differently earlier in regards to Austria.

Really, my best shot at a better result was to get Austria to move on Germany with me to go for a 2 way. Then an option to go for a solo might have materialized as well. I was pushing that angle with Austria as Germany continued to try to maneuver himself into a potential solo. Germany definitely had an appetite for more but was thwarted. My mostly subtle attempts to push Austria toward attacking Germany had potential but Germany acquiesced to demands we placed on him and Austria was content with the 3 way. I could have tried to push more overtly to go for more but once everyone is more or less content with the proposed solution, that's a tough sell without being the guy that actually ends up with the short straw.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 2. AAR

Postby Iggy » 21 Feb 2018, 19:35

nanooktheeskimo wrote:1, I get annoyed easily sometimes.

2, I'm not nearly as annoyed as you guys seem to think I am (for the most part, at least!).

3, I do probably let it get to me a bit more than it should, it's just frustrating to put a ton of time and energy into an alliance then get stabbed for what I maintain were bad reasons. Or at least, poorly dealt with reasons. And then getting blamed wholesale for that stab, adds to the annoyance. So yeah, probably let it get me more annoyed than it should, but it's frustrating to have a fairly large time investment ruined then to be told it's entirely your fault you were stabbed and that if you were just a little nicer then all the bad things that happened to you could've been avoided. See how that can grate on the nerves and patience?

Anyways, seems like it's more of a difference in philosophy than anything else. Not sure it's going to be reconciled, but who knows, stranger things have happened.


I think you come off more angry than you might actually be. It happens on the interwebs sometimes.

In the area of "learning something from the game", I think you are missing the boat on number 3 above. It seems to come down to somewhat of a miscommunication and/or lack of effective communication but you played a hefty part in Austria moving on you. I would like to think I had a big part in that. I was talking Austria's ear off and got Germany involved in the conversation to try with all my might to turn Austria from your ally to your enemy. While Germany and I had a piece of that, I think Austria has outlined pretty well that you had a huge part in that. The messages he posted and the story you each tell shows that he tried to give you several opportunities to realize your mistake and speak to it. You didn't seem to get what he was saying and didn't bother to validate the messages you had sent.

Ultimately that gave you no real opportunity to win the propaganda battle over "message-gate". You made a mistake in sending a message to me instead of to Austria. That gave me leverage that I think I used fairly effectively - with Germany's help for his own self-centered reasons. There's also the part of the brusque nature of your communications that can be a "take away" from this. Your tirade after the stab minimized Austria's desire to think about reconciling, even after I made my "mini-stab". My honest communication and calm demeanor won the day in regards to restoring our relationship. That was helped by your acerbic tone on the other side not fostering a relationship that encouraged reconciliation.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 2. AAR

Postby Iggy » 21 Feb 2018, 19:44

lb1785 wrote:I think my early choice for expansion was set when I received what I considered a strange reply to my opening message to England. England essentially replied to my first inquiry about Belgium by stating they wanted to cooperate with France to get it asap, but wanted to stay in touch with me in case we could set up a good stab. This made me spill the beans to France immediately, and work hard to build an alliance with France for early cooperation against England.


I forgot about this... England actually seemed to be way to open on this regard in that he seemed to only consider allying with France and wasn't very secretive about it. I had shared some of that insight with Germany and France, with the hope they could work something out and France would move north against England instead of potentially heading my way soon. The problem was this plan worked a little too well and France and Germany became too strong, too fast. And despite having both of them promising me peace, I was really concerned about the two turning east/south and staying committing.

Hence me then working very hard trying to get one to attack the other ASAP. Both were reluctant to commit troops at the other and thus I feared I would be next in their assault. Thus being another reason I was more interested in working with Austria to bring the demise of Turkey and Russia ASAP so that Austria and I might have a fighting chance if FG continued to cooperate instead of start fighting. An FG alliance continuing after England fell would have been disastrous for both Austria and me.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 2. AAR

Postby lb1785 » 21 Feb 2018, 20:55

Iggy wrote:I forgot about this... England actually seemed to be way to open on this regard in that he seemed to only consider allying with France and wasn't very secretive about it. I had shared some of that insight with Germany and France, with the hope they could work something out and France would move north against England instead of potentially heading my way soon.
The problem was this plan worked a little too well and France and Germany became too strong, too fast. And despite having both of them promising me peace, I was really concerned about the two turning east/south and staying committing.

Hence me then working very hard trying to get one to attack the other ASAP. Both were reluctant to commit troops at the other and thus I feared I would be next in their assault. Thus being another reason I was more interested in working with Austria to bring the demise of Turkey and Russia ASAP so that Austria and I might have a fighting chance if FG continued to cooperate instead of start fighting. An FG alliance continuing after England fell would have been disastrous for both Austria and me.


There, that's probably where my stab on France wasn't enough to grant me a real solo shot: Italy and Austria managed to put aside their differences and unite the East too fast and too effectively for me to cross the stalemate line in War or Mos. I will try to explain in more details later why I still thought this stab on France was a good idea at the time, though.
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 2. AAR

Postby champinoman » 28 Feb 2018, 05:10

Excuse me Mr LB, but you haven't forgotten about this have you? You left us with a cliff hanger ending...
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Re: PDL 2. Round 1 Game 2. AAR

Postby lb1785 » 01 Mar 2018, 15:58

champinoman wrote:Excuse me Mr LB, but you haven't forgotten about this have you? You left us with a cliff hanger ending...


Sorry I am on vacation at the moment, but I intend to finish this next week hopefully...
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