protection from relegation

Suggestions to improve the concept of a PlayDiplomacy League

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Re: protection from relegation

Postby mjparrett » 01 May 2018, 23:43

After the first time this happened, I asked the leader of PDL 3 to step up and he declined. Moving on to second (which was joint second of about 7 players!) didn't seem right. I guess I need to amend the rules.

Yeah I see the point of the thread and it sucks. I never thought there would be this many replacements. Its a hard one to have a hard and fast rule though - at what point does the new player not have protection. I agree if he comes in the first game he probably shouldn't, but it gets very subjective.

Boldblade - you did make your point, it got plenty of fair air and discussion and I don't think that is going to be the right answer here. I did also ask everyone in the league for their opinion (results soon I promise), but a lot of people want that to remain as is and not reduce the number of relegations.

I also have noticed that all the surrenders/resignations are people near the bottom. But of course it is - if you are winning every game you are unlikely to lose the passion to play! Is that a real thing or is it sore loser syndrome? Again very hard to tell.
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby Stalwart Higgins » 02 May 2018, 00:34

mjparrett wrote:After the first time this happened, I asked the leader of PDL 3 to step up and he declined. Moving on to second (which was joint second of about 7 players!) didn't seem right. I guess I need to amend the rules.


This is entirely self-serving on my part, but considering ccloughley and I are now tied for first place, I would most graciously accept promotion to league 2 if you're in need of people to jump in. :) I could stay in league 3 as well, (maybe just as a participant, rather than for league ranking?) so you don't have to lose players there.
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby boldblade » 02 May 2018, 01:52

Meh, it would solve some problems. Might even solve that whole 7 way tie for second place issue you mentioned.
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby mhsmith0 » 02 May 2018, 02:56

I tend to think that late season subs should just be subs

Possibly also there can be a standard that if someone gets promoted to replace a slot mid-season (say, at any point after 2 rounds are done), that counts against the set of promotions, which then means there are fewer people coming up, which effectively just relegates out the slot that quit, which I think sort of solves the problem?
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby boldblade » 02 May 2018, 06:09

I like it but I would guess that would be even more frustrating to the lower league folks that miss out on a promotion because of it. Raising the bar to get promoted seems more palatable to me than losing a spot in the higher league to someone that wasn't in the league to begin with. Both seem ok to me but I imagine the resistance will be strong.
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby duckling » 02 May 2018, 18:46

There wouldn’t be fewer people coming up. It would just be that someone came up a little sooner than the others...

Yes, rankings may change so those early risers might not have qualified eventually, but it doesn’t appear a huge issue to me.
I doubt we can eliminate all possible details that could feel unfair in the league, there’ll always be something....
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby boldblade » 02 May 2018, 19:25

You are right. I misread. I thought he was suggesting that all replacements should eliminate promotions. But I guess he did say midseason promotions should simply reduce the number of promotions at the end of the season which I certainly would agree with. In fact, that may even have been assumed when MJ wrote that rule.
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby Riles » 03 May 2018, 07:07

As a replacement in league 2, I do not mind getting relegated. I'm only speaking for myself and not for the other replacements, but since I'm playing in 3 of the 4 games I feel that's plenty chance to get myself out of the bottom third. If I can't do it then I probably deserve to move down. If I can get myself into the top third I would expect to be promoted, I should expect the same about being relegated.

So my protection can be removed (I would personally prefer it), even if the other replacements keep their protections. I'm not making a statement for all replacements, just for me, and it seems that removing my protection can help make things smoother through this. I don't want to deny a promotion from league 3 or relegate a league 2 person that didn't deserve it. I had stated this initially when I joined and I thought it was worth mentioning again now that the topic came up.

Obviously this is all moot because I'm going to win league 2 ;)
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby mhsmith0 » 03 May 2018, 17:31

I think I'd prefer a standard to be:

1) If someone replaces into a game in round 1, they're subject to the same promotion/relegation rules as everyone else in that league. The same would be true if someone replaces into a viable position in round 2.
2) If someone replaces into a game after round 2, or in a non-viable position in round 2, then the standard varies by...
- if they replace into league 1/2 and are a newcomer to the league, they're subject to the same promotion/relegation rules as everyone else (so someone who essentially hops in line and briefly gets into league 2 can get bounced back to league 3 for the next year... which seems ok to me?)
- if they were at the top of league 3 and hop into league 2 (or do the same for league 1 from league 2), then they simply count as one of the promotion slots from the league below (and the person they replaced counts as a relegation slot). So they then CANNOT be relegated from their new league, and they just hold in place instead (unless I guess they play well enough to promote in which case things need to be re-juggled)

Possibly with some refinements becuase this isn't fully fleshed out, but I think that's ABOUT right?
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Re: protection from relegation

Postby Iggy » 03 May 2018, 18:14

mhsmith0 wrote:I think I'd prefer a standard to be:

1) If someone replaces into a game in round 1, they're subject to the same promotion/relegation rules as everyone else in that league. The same would be true if someone replaces into a viable position in round 2.
2) If someone replaces into a game after round 2, or in a non-viable position in round 2, then the standard varies by...
- if they replace into league 1/2 and are a newcomer to the league, they're subject to the same promotion/relegation rules as everyone else (so someone who essentially hops in line and briefly gets into league 2 can get bounced back to league 3 for the next year... which seems ok to me?)
- if they were at the top of league 3 and hop into league 2 (or do the same for league 1 from league 2), then they simply count as one of the promotion slots from the league below (and the person they replaced counts as a relegation slot). So they then CANNOT be relegated from their new league, and they just hold in place instead (unless I guess they play well enough to promote in which case things need to be re-juggled)

Possibly with some refinements becuase this isn't fully fleshed out, but I think that's ABOUT right?


You are a wise, wise man. I would imagine that was also the original intent - i.e. if you get promoted as a replacement mid-season, then you are no eligible to be relegated back down that same season. I'd also imagine that the number of relegations would be dropped by that spot.

I'm pretty sure I had that in my mind at some point but forgot. If that is the rule/intent of the rule, I think all is good. Someone that replaces a player directly into the league from outside it should be up for promotion/relegation same as any other player in the league. I like this idea.
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