Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Suggestions to improve the concept of a PlayDiplomacy League

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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby Saturos » 03 Apr 2018, 20:43

duckling wrote:
Saturos wrote:

So you misspoke when you said each surviving player and meant each drawing player, then?


All survivors are included in the draw, they’re DIAS games.



So... England would get points unless we kept playing for weeks more to eliminate him.

How do you not see that is a big difference?
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby WHSeward » 03 Apr 2018, 21:10

In SoS, your score is YOUR center-count squared divided by the SUM of all survivors' squared center-counts. In such a scoring system, it is not to your advantage to eliminate a power. That lowers your score. What you want is to have the most centers AND for there to be a lot of little powers left. Get out a spreadsheet and play around with it. You will see how it changes objectives.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 03 Apr 2018, 21:17

FWIW, SoS or Carnage would be excellent for this format, because they were both designed with similar setups in mind. The problem is that if the league plays ranked games, neither SoS or Carnage are at all compatible with draw based scoring, which means you're asking players to play to separate best draw conditions and you'll inevitably end up with some players trying to get the best SoS or Carnage score, and others trying to get the best site rating draw based score.

That's not really fair to either set of players, and would make for a fairly unhealthy atmosphere.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby mhsmith0 » 03 Apr 2018, 21:25

Yeah, conflicting objectives isn't really a good thing. I think that the presence of a minor conflicting objective, where you get minor credit for supply centers win or lose, is probably fine, even if it does potentially influence games a bit which isn't really ideal (i.e. if you're very likely to lose, you may accept a draw excluding you in order to at least end up with centers, while in a typical game you'll fight on to the end unless it's completely unwinnable). But to go completely away from draw-based scoring to only supply center based scoring is enough of a shift that it's not fair to rank games... and I don't think there'd be much of an interest in a legaue where all games were unranked.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby Saturos » 03 Apr 2018, 21:35

WHSeward wrote:In SoS, your score is YOUR center-count squared divided by the SUM of all survivors' center-counts squared. In such a scoring system, it is not to your advantage to eliminate a power. That lowers your score. What you want is to have the most centers AND for there to be a lot of little powers left. Get out a spreadsheet and play around with it. You will see how it changes objectives.


From my understanding, in our game: https://www.playdiplomacy.com/game_play ... _id=138643

The current result with our 3 way (ignoring tiebreaker points) is:
Turkey:10
Austria:10
France: 10
Germany: 0
England: 0

The current result with SoS (as I understand it):
Total of Squares: 9^2= 81 + 8^2= 64 + 8^2=64 + 8^2=64 + 1^2=1 = 274

Turkey: 81/274 = 30
Austria: 23
France: 23
Germany: 0
England: 23

If we took 5 centers from England, and all went up to 10:
Total of Squares: 10^2 + 10^2 + 10^2 + 3^2 + 1^2 = 310

Turkey: 100/310 = 32
Austria: 32
France: 32
Germany: 0
England: 3


Please, correct me if I am wrong, but how is us all going up to 32 and England going down to 3 not something we want to do?

And just to go the full distance:

If we took all centers from England, and all went up to 11:
Total of Squares: 11^2 + 11^2 + 11^2 + 1^2 = 364

Turkey: 121/364 = 33
Austria: 121/364 = 33
France: 121/364 = 33
Germany: 1/364 = 0
England: 0
Last edited by Saturos on 03 Apr 2018, 21:38, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 03 Apr 2018, 21:36

Run the numbers if he goes down to zero.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby Saturos » 03 Apr 2018, 21:39

nanooktheeskimo wrote:Run the numbers if he goes down to zero.


Was already in the process of editing that in.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 03 Apr 2018, 21:44

Great. Now let's say not everything went perfectly smoothly, and you ended up with France on 14, Austria and Italy on 10 apiece.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby mhsmith0 » 03 Apr 2018, 21:44

WH's point is more from the perspective of a single leading power.

Turkey at 9 centers:

Scenario 1
Austria 8
France 8
England 8
Germany 1

SS total = 274, Turkey gets 81/274*100 = 29.6 (or 30 if you're rounding)

Turkey gets 30, A/F/E get 23 each

Scenario 2
Austria 7
France 7
England 7
Germany 1
Some other rump power 3

SS total = 238, Turkey gets 81/238*100 = 34.0, so with zero changes in cetners on Turkey's part, you still see a notable boost in points

Scenario 3
Turkey 10
Austria 12
France 12
Germany 0

Here you're up a center from the previous example, but the SS total is 388, and your share becomes 25.7, LOWER than scenario 1.

So yes, gaining centers is always good, but the bigger incentive is to make sure you stay at the #1 spot, and in terms of the centers you don't have, it's much more helpful to see the spread out among a bunch of competitors vs bunched more together.
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Re: Scoring System for Second PDL Season

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 03 Apr 2018, 21:46

mhsmith0 wrote:So yes, gaining centers is always good, but the bigger incentive is to make sure you stay at the #1 spot, and in terms of the centers you don't have, it's much more helpful to see the spread out among a bunch of competitors vs bunched more together.

Key point here. Draw based scoring encourages eliminations. SoS encourages keeping the rest of the board small, and only eliminating players if you're the one taking their dots.
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