NMRs / surrenders

Suggestions to improve the concept of a PlayDiplomacy League

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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby mjparrett » 02 Dec 2017, 00:30

If a new league starts up and has strong players in it, they will have to work their way up. I really think that is the only way. I acknowledge that it might have strong players in it. But one promotion a time is all I offer. If people don't like it I can only apologise. But 1st in league 4 does NOT deserve to suddenly be in league 1, ahead of players who are already working their way up.

Again though, take the "fairness" out. What is a strong/good rank? Am I one?! I really don't think I am any good at this game. Decent yes, but a top player? No. Someone might have just joined and got 2 solos out of 2 games but against weak opposition and have an unrealistic ranking. It is just too subjective and will never please everyone. My way is same rules for all after this initial sign up. Lovely.

Oh the perils of being an administrator. I will be posting soon looking for help running this. Salary offered and everything ;)
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby NJLonghorn » 02 Dec 2017, 05:07

mjparrett wrote:If a new league starts up and has strong players in it, they will have to work their way up. I really think that is the only way. I acknowledge that it might have strong players in it. But one promotion a time is all I offer. If people don't like it I can only apologise. But 1st in league 4 does NOT deserve to suddenly be in league 1, ahead of players who are already working their way up.

Again though, take the "fairness" out. What is a strong/good rank? Am I one?! I really don't think I am any good at this game. Decent yes, but a top player? No. Someone might have just joined and got 2 solos out of 2 games but against weak opposition and have an unrealistic ranking. It is just too subjective and will never please everyone. My way is same rules for all after this initial sign up. Lovely.

Oh the perils of being an administrator. I will be posting soon looking for help running this. Salary offered and everything ;)


It is very much out of character for me to push a point so firmly. I am generally very receptive to other people’s ideas, often to the point of being a pushover for any halfway decent argument. But I can’t wrap my mind around why you are so insistent on punishing people who signed up within days of when the league was announced. It is inconceivable to me that you have spent so much trying to be fair to the first 42 who signed up, yet you dispense with even the pretense of trying to be fair to number 43. If he gets lucky enough to beat number 100 in responding to a PM, great. If not, number 100 gets the open spot and number 43 has to wait to join the new league in 2019, with no chance to move up to the top league until 2021.

I understand that administering the league is hard and you can’t make everything perfect. But with very little extra effort, you could be a little more fair. If you sent out 5 PMs you’d almost surely get a quick response from one. Why is it easier, or fairer, to PM others who signed up later?

And by the way, my argument about promotions has nothing to do with ratings. In a new league of 21 players chosen pretty much randomly, some will inevitably be strong players. The fact that they may or may not have high ratings is irrelevant.

Okay, I’m off my soapbox. For now at least. :D
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby mhsmith0 » 02 Dec 2017, 07:13

Fwiw, in a 21 person league, it’s probably not too problematic to promote #1 two leagues up, #21 two leagues down, and then do the other promotions or relegations just up or down one? Obv it’s your league and can run as you like but that seems reasonable to me?
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 02 Dec 2017, 09:35

mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw, in a 21 person league, it’s probably not too problematic to promote #1 two leagues up, #21 two leagues down, and then do the other promotions or relegations just up or down one? Obv it’s your league and can run as you like but that seems reasonable to me?

From the perspective of someone not in the league this year but possibly interested if this keeps up in future years...it seems pretty fair to say #1 in each league gets moved up, plus however many to get to 7 upgrades (so with 3 leagues, #1 in the third league plus top 6 from league 2). I dunno, that seems like it's still pretty fair to everyone in league 2, while also offering a little extra incentive to win your league if you're in league 3 (or lower, if you build up enough players for 4+ leagues).
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby rd45 » 02 Dec 2017, 10:48

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw, in a 21 person league, it’s probably not too problematic to promote #1 two leagues up, #21 two leagues down, and then do the other promotions or relegations just up or down one? Obv it’s your league and can run as you like but that seems reasonable to me?

From the perspective of someone not in the league this year but possibly interested if this keeps up in future years...it seems pretty fair to say #1 in each league gets moved up, plus however many to get to 7 upgrades (so with 3 leagues, #1 in the third league plus top 6 from league 2). I dunno, that seems like it's still pretty fair to everyone in league 2, while also offering a little extra incentive to win your league if you're in league 3 (or lower, if you build up enough players for 4+ leagues).


There are some major cultural differences at play here. People who follow American sports are used to franchise arrangements where places in the most prestigious division are sold to the highest bidder, then retained indefinitely. That's not how leagues work in the rest of the world. Promotion and relegation are always from one division to the next. No skipping ahead. That's not how it works. It's such a bizarre idea that you don't even know how crazy it sounds.

Have a look at what happened over the past few years for Rangers or AFC Wimbledon. That's the model for how a league works. New entrants to a league start at the bottom and work up, one division at a time. Noone gets a free pass to the elite tier.
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby mhsmith0 » 02 Dec 2017, 19:52

I dont consider winning a large league outright a “free pass”

I do think it’s a fair question about how fluid we want league arrangements to be, all the more so given that plenty of people will probably NOT be up for, 8 dunno, a 5+ year commitment, regardless of what’s indicated currently.
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 02 Dec 2017, 20:05

rd45 wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:Fwiw, in a 21 person league, it’s probably not too problematic to promote #1 two leagues up, #21 two leagues down, and then do the other promotions or relegations just up or down one? Obv it’s your league and can run as you like but that seems reasonable to me?

From the perspective of someone not in the league this year but possibly interested if this keeps up in future years...it seems pretty fair to say #1 in each league gets moved up, plus however many to get to 7 upgrades (so with 3 leagues, #1 in the third league plus top 6 from league 2). I dunno, that seems like it's still pretty fair to everyone in league 2, while also offering a little extra incentive to win your league if you're in league 3 (or lower, if you build up enough players for 4+ leagues).


There are some major cultural differences at play here. People who follow American sports are used to franchise arrangements where places in the most prestigious division are sold to the highest bidder, then retained indefinitely. That's not how leagues work in the rest of the world. Promotion and relegation are always from one division to the next. No skipping ahead. That's not how it works. It's such a bizarre idea that you don't even know how crazy it sounds.

Have a look at what happened over the past few years for Rangers or AFC Wimbledon. That's the model for how a league works. New entrants to a league start at the bottom and work up, one division at a time. Noone gets a free pass to the elite tier.

You're not really describing how things work in the US either, but sure.

Regardless though...you do realize this isn't the premier league, yes? This is a Diplomacy league, it can be structured however the organizer wants it to be structured. If Mike wants to base relegation and promotion on who sends him the funniest meme, he could do that. Not as many people would play, but he could do that if he wanted to.

I don't see why this specific league has to be modeled exactly after the premier league or whatever other league. We're already adapting a team concept to a league full of individuals, if anything it would make more sense to, if we're going to model it exactly after something, model it after tennis or golf rankings (but nobody wants that!). So yeah, basically I don't see what's wrong with taking the bits and pieces you want from established models and molding it into your own thing. Especially since that's already what's being done!
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby mjparrett » 02 Dec 2017, 20:06

How would there be 60 people on the standby list?? At most there would be 20 surely. If I have 21 standbys i just create another league.

It *could* be that there is some misunderstanding here. When signup closes on 15/12, whoever is left over from a multiple of 21 is on the standby list. If someone starts posting in January saying he wants to join then he/she DOESN'T go on the standby list. They need to wait until the following year signups.

And I think this is a moo point (cow's opinion) anyway. I'm now quite hopeful with a little push I'll get to 63 and 3 leagues. People like Nanook (standby only!) and a few others will make a very small list of standbys. I'd expect to have no more than 10. So it's hardly punishing #64 any more that #74.

And apologies I can't remember who posted the point, but yes 1 promotion a time is how these things work. Maybe the league 3 winner wouldn't be a pushover in league 1. But that's really not the point.

The rules are clear on how the league is run for promotions and surrender/NMRs. I really don't think there is much to answer here; I am starting to regret having a "suggestion" page at all! (jokes. sort of). Let's start the league and see how it works. And I still don't see anyone with 10 votes, so I can only assume everyone else agrees with me ;)
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 02 Dec 2017, 20:08

And by the way...I'm not even pushing for the winner of a potential third league to jump to the first...I'm just saying that it's workable if you wanted to do it, and not an unreasonable suggestion.
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Re: NMRs / surrenders

Postby mjparrett » 02 Dec 2017, 20:09

Nanook you are right. Wise words :) But being English I like the traditional football promotion model and that is how I choose to organise! I have put a lot of effort in getting this even this far, and it's getting shot down before it has begun. I say this with tongue firmly in cheek, but if anyone doesn't like the rules they don't have to sign up! But presumably lots of people do....

Yes it would be workable. But I'm sticking to my guns...
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