A Question on Scoring

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A Question on Scoring

Postby Shyvve » 23 Nov 2017, 23:16

The following quote is from the PDL Rules Sub-Forum:
Scoring
The scoring system will be as follows:

Solo = 40 points
2 way draw = 20 points
3 way draw = 10 points
4 way draw = 5 points
5 way draw = 2 points
6 and 7 way draw = 0 points
Surrender = -5 points.

Please note any 2 surrenders in a season will face possible elimination from the league (you will be PM'd for an explanation. Any lack of real life issues and you are out!)

"Centre difference" will be used as a tie breaker. Everyone starts with 3 home centres (Russia 4). So you centre difference will be your final centre count less your start count. Therefore elimination from a game will receive a centre difference of -3 (-4 for Russia). Should you still be alive at the end game but not part of any draw then you will receive 0 points but your centre difference will still be your final centre count less your start position. So potentially positive even though you have 0 points.

My question concerns whether the tie breaker "center difference" points will be bundled into a player's score. For the sake of this post let's call a player's score in a given game his "League Points." I'm assuming these "center difference" points won't be part of a player's score but will only be used to resolve the rankings order in the (expected) event of ties.

An example might help me explain what I'm asking here. Let's say the first round of games end up seeing 10 players eliminated and 6 survivors who weren't included in draws. So, all of these sixteen players will earn a score of zero "League Points." To resolve the relative standings among these sixteen players, the tie breaker procedure would then be invoked, based on "center difference", yes?
But all sixteen players would still have a "League Points" score of zero, right?
Or more simply, are the "League Points" and "tiebreaker points" separate critters, with the "tiebreaker points" being just an artifice to resolve rankings order among players with equal "League Points"?

Adding a thought for consideration:
Russia is the only power for which an elimination would result in -4 tiebreaker points. Should we reduce this penalty to -3 so that we level the playing field in this respect for all seven powers?
I'm proposing this change to the tiebreaker points (-3 for all seven powers) only for games in which a power is eliminated. Survivors which are not included in a draw would still receive tiebreaker points based on the net difference in [# finishing centers - # starting centers] as originally proposed; which could be positive or negative.
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby mjparrett » 23 Nov 2017, 23:50

You are correct in your assumption; in your example all players would have 0 league points. The centre difference (which will always be displayed in the league table) merely separates players tied on league points.

Think of it like the football (soccer!) league. Points is what really matters. Goal difference just separates those tied.

And yes, Russia will get -4 if he is eliminated. I am not too fussed about this for 2 reasons.

1. This is only a tie-breaker for people level on points. And if we talking about -4 or -3 we are by default talking about people who have been eliminated and this shouldn't be affecting the top of the table. If someone gets relegated because they were Russia and the goal difference is only 1 worse than the player above who stays up... well then it might kick off :) But that is VERY unlikely. As such I think this is a trivial point, and just means I have a definitive 1-21 rather than a bunch of people tied on a score. I'm hoping and praying the person who wins the league doesn't do so by centre difference! And if he does... well it's only a game :)
2. There is a body of evidence that not all countries are equal anyway. Maybe Italy should only get -2 on elimination because it generally fairs worse than other countries. Where would it end? And this evidence also generally says Russia is a strong power. So they can cope with the -4. Best just not to get eliminated :)

I appreciate you are only proposing a minor tweak to the tie-breaker and not the point structure. But I saw from my original posts that the scoring was the one issue that people just couldn't agree on. For everyone who agrees with you (and there will be a few I'm sure), you will have people asking for other changes either to the league points basis, or to the tie breaker. Ultimately it is the same for everyone and I would really rather avoid changing the point structure until at least a season has been played...

Just concentrate on a few solos and you can leave centre difference for the rubbish players like me ;)
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby Shyvve » 24 Nov 2017, 01:51

No problem, Mike. I just wasn't clear whether the "League Points" and "tie breaker" points would be separate entities.
The idea about assigning -3 tie breaker points to all seven powers was just an afterthought.
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 24 Nov 2017, 03:37

I'm slightly confused. Why do countries get negative tiebreaker points for being eliminated? Shouldn't it just be 0 for an elimination? Isn't that easier?
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby mjparrett » 24 Nov 2017, 10:49

Same for everyone so doesn't matter. And seems easy to me.

Rather than worry, sign yourself up nanook!
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby nanooktheeskimo » 24 Nov 2017, 15:24

mjparrett wrote:Same for everyone so doesn't matter. And seems easy to me.

Rather than worry, sign yourself up nanook!

2/1/1 is a bit fast for me to be able to commit to a whole 10 months of it. Especially with travel plans in the summer. Good luck though :)
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby jay65536 » 24 Nov 2017, 19:36

mjparrett wrote:Same for everyone so doesn't matter. And seems easy to me.


Not the same if you draw Russia.
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby Bromley86 » 25 Nov 2017, 00:36

Administratively, it may just be better to use centre counts at the end to break ties. You can just open the archived game, look at the the game status, and not have to bother about adjusting -4 for Russia, -3 for the others. This also dodges the fairness issue of penalising a Russian loss more than a French one.

As Shyvve illustrates, there will likely need to be a further tie-breaker, just in case. You could go for coin flip, but why not come up with a better one? The current tie-breaker will likely always work for those being promoted, but however many you move up/down between the leagues, there's always the possibility that you'll have more 0 score ties at the bottom of the league than you were going to move. Personally I'd have a next-level tie breaker based on stats for country draws (PD stats are suspect IMO, so this is what I'd use).

From that, you're looking at FETRGIA if you rank countries in full press games by their win+draw rates (i.e. their chances of surviving). So playing France would be worth 1, Russia 4, and Austria 7. Add up the scores for the 4 games, and you have your second level tie-breaker, with the lower scores being demoted. The logic being that someone who played FETR but scored 0 has probably done worse than someone who played RGIA and scored zero.

Obviously, you don't bother actually doing this until it's actually required, but writing it into the rules ahead of time means everyone knows where they stand.
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby mjparrett » 25 Nov 2017, 12:26

I like the fact the two last comments are from people not even in the league ;)

When I said same for everyone, I meant the same rules apply to all players. Yeah Russia gets -4. I don't think this will be a big deal. And maybe it will encourage some bold play if you are Russia and worried about centre difference. Bromley - again subjective; you say you don't "trust" this sites stats but offer up another set. For everyone who agrees, there will be plenty who don't. I'm just about to complete a solo as Austria - the worst ranked country according to that list. So very opinion based.

Anyway - my offer stands. If someone posts a suggestions and gets 10 "I agree" comments (and from what I can see Bromley and Jay aren't agreeing with each other, just disagreeing with me!) then I will put it up for a vote. But that doesn't seem to be the case here.

Let's get the league started. And then anyone who is actually playing feels unfairly done by the scoring system, we can open it up again. Otherwise.... no deal! 8-)
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Re: A Question on Scoring

Postby Bromley86 » 25 Nov 2017, 12:51

Encouraging bold play by Russia with no evidence that this is required is suspect.

I don't trust the sites data because it has excessive outliers. See here, and note the likely massive Russian solo over representation in the PD Ambassador stats. Note that I'm not saying that they're recording incorrectly here, just that there was likely something going on in those Ambassador games that gave Russia an edge (e.g. a series of games where someone with a lot of success as Russia repeatedly plays Russia). You can use the more numerous non-Ambassador stats (although the ones in that link are for solos only, so no good when determining who failed best), but I suspect the games that fed into that Pouch article were of a higher standard than the average ranked game on this site.

The fact that you're about to solo as Austria is, statistically, entirely irrelevant. What is relevant after a series of games where a bunch of players failed to win/draw in 4 games is who deserves to be demoted. I'd suggest that someone who plays France 4 times and got zip is a better candidate for demotion than someone who played Italy 4 times, and statistics support this.

Anyway, just trying to help. As you say, I'm not involved, so I'll butt out
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