Devious GM Fall 1945

Diplomacy where the GM makes a set of unannounced predetermined random changes to the map, rules, etc based on one or more variants. Introduced by Pedros, GMed by Asudevil.

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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby asudevil » 18 Dec 2015, 23:13

marsman57 wrote:I see a tank randomly in NAO, but none deployed the the map. Maybe you missed a step? :)

Also, I believe Sar and Ice lose their SCs.


Ok, lets start here...SAR loses theres...but ICE clearly states that it stays neutral. Ill be honest, I don't know WHY it goes neutral...but the rules clearly say if American cavalry is eliminated...it becomes neutral. I think there is definite ambiguity ... and my gut is that ICE should stop being an SC...Ill give 24 hours for opinions. I lean that it shouldn't be an SC...but at the same time, it clearly says that it will be. Im sorry.

EpicDim wrote:Mol and Pru also lose their status. I should have two tanks Mun and Bel.

Rules question
Any unit entering an SC (or sea zone)


Does entering mean ending the spring turn, or does it include any entry/pass through into the SC/sea zone.


Also Spain gets on in MAD and GDA gets one as well.

This will mean ENDING a spring turn there similarly to how it has to end a fall turn there. Ornithopertering or anything like that ... will not count.

EpicDim wrote:Also, how does "Any unit" apply to zombies and mercs?


Zombies will make SCs neutral if they end there in spring (same as they already do in fall)...and Mercs can offer up payment for SCs they are in during spring, same as they do now after fall.

EpicDim wrote:
Each player receives a number of 8s equal to the number of SCs he currently controls (minor and major combined, up to a max of 8).


Since this happens at the beginning of the movement phase and Mol is no longer an SC, I'm assuming that Germany is only getting 6 8s this spring.


Agreed. Germany gets 5 pieces, France 1, England 8
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby asudevil » 18 Dec 2015, 23:15

Here's our new map...Im just going to post it here instead of going back and fixing it.

Winter 45.gif
Winter 45.gif (60.45 KiB) Viewed 1525 times
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby Jegpeg » 19 Dec 2015, 01:00

My view on Ice.

It clearly says that it will be neutral (and it would have been American if they were still around) however it also clearly states that Ice (along with Pru, Sar and Mol) will only be SCs until the capitals return to being SCs. This is a definitely an ambiguity as both can not be true (unless "the SC becomes neutral" is interpreted as the ICE which was an SC becomes nuetral at the time it ceases to become an SC but I am fairly sure that is not the interpretation).

As we must break one of these rules I am inclined to agree with Asudevil that making it a non-SC makes most sense.
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby EpicDim » 19 Dec 2015, 01:40

I assumed Ice was going to lose its SC so I'm OK with that ruling.
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby marsman57 » 19 Dec 2015, 02:52

If American cavalry is still in the game, Iceland stays his and will allow for an additional unit the following winter (assuming he doesn’t lose one). If American cavalry is not in the game, the SC becomes neutral.

I don't believe there is actually an inconsistency. These sentences refer to Iceland's state when the rule went into effect, not now. They should've been another paragraph to be clearer but you can see looking back that they were immediately implemented.
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby Jegpeg » 19 Dec 2015, 04:57

marsman57 wrote:If American cavalry is still in the game, Iceland stays his and will allow for an additional unit the following winter (assuming he doesn’t lose one). If American cavalry is not in the game, the SC becomes neutral.

I don't believe there is actually an inconsistency. These sentences refer to Iceland's state when the rule went into effect, not now. They should've been another paragraph to be clearer but you can see looking back that they were immediately implemented.


But
Rule wrote:Neutral SCs have shown up in Iceland, Sardinia (becoming passable), Prussia and Moldovia. These SCs will only be SCs until the nuclear waste is cleaned up and the capitals return to being SCs in 1946.


There is an inconsistency you can argue that Iceland should remain an SC because that rule is more specific than the rule which says it should cease to be an SC (which also applies to 3 others), or because it comes later it overrules the former, (or any other reason) but the rule is ambiguous.
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby marsman57 » 19 Dec 2015, 08:45

I still completely disagree. Here is the full rule below:

While the nuclear waste is being cleaned up from the capitals many survivors have gone into less populated areas and are willing to continue fighting for the cause. Neutral SCs have shown up in Iceland, Sardinia (becoming passable), Prussia and Moldovia. These SCs will only be SCs until the nuclear waste is cleaned up and the capitals return to being SCs in 1946. Sardinia will remain passable even after losing its SC. If American cavalry is still in the game, Iceland stays his and will allow for an additional unit the following winter (assuming he doesn’t lose one). If American cavalry is not in the game, the SC becomes neutral.

Here is the full rule with the flavor text stripped out:
Neutral SCs have shown up in Iceland, Sardinia (becoming passable), Prussia and Moldovia. These SCs will only be SCs until the nuclear waste is cleaned up and the capitals return to being SCs in 1946. Sardinia will remain passable even after losing its SC. If American cavalry is still in the game, Iceland stays his and will allow for an additional unit the following winter (assuming he doesn’t lose one). If American cavalry is not in the game, the SC becomes neutral.

Here is the full rule separated into bullets:
1. Neutral SCs have shown up in Iceland, Sardinia (becoming passable), Prussia and Moldovia.
2. These SCs will only be SCs until the nuclear waste is cleaned up and the capitals return to being SCs in 1946.
3. Sardinia will remain passable even after losing its SC.
4. If American cavalry is still in the game, Iceland stays his and will allow for an additional unit the following winter (assuming he doesn’t lose one). If American cavalry is not in the game, the SC becomes neutral.

Now lets focus on bullet #4 which is what you purport to be the ambiguity. I am saying that it clearly does not refer to bullet #2 above but rather refers to the state of Iceland when the rule was put into play in Spring 1943. If you look at Spring 1943, you can confirm this is true as Iceland is USA green while the other three are neutral.

Yes, it would have been more clear if the rule had been written with bullet #4 before bullet #2 but that doesn't change the fact that there is nothing to indicate that the last part was still referring to bullet #2.

This is all moot anyway as we've all agreed in principle that Iceland should not be an SC. I was just trying to confirm that the ambiguity is only from a misreading of the rule. If you think about it from the plain perspective of when it was introduced, it makes perfect sense.
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby EpicDim » 19 Dec 2015, 15:52

I agree with marsman57 that it's the order it was written that causes the ambiguity, but I do see it as a bad ambiguity and I'm glad that I was already expecting it to go away since I didn't read it that closely since 1943. :) Otherwise I'd be mad again. :)

On a different rule note, I think the intent of the tank rule is different than the wording. It seems bad that armies built in SCs immediately become tanks. It is how the rule is written though.
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby EpicDim » 19 Dec 2015, 16:23

If you do this same analysis on the prior rule ambiguity: (Strip out flavor and put in bullets)

1. Every capital city is now both impassable and no longer an SC.
2. Any unit or zombie that was in one of these capitals is eliminated.
3. In spring 1945 the territories will be clear enough of rubble and radiation to be passable again.
4. Starting in spring 1946 they will have had enough time to rebuild and they will be able to once again support troops and be considered a home SC.
5. They are neutral in the war until someone comes to claim them in the standard way.
6. While these cities are cleaning up their nuclear waste, they will not count as SCs for victory conditions.

The argument then was that since 5 came after 4 it applied to the starting in Spring 1946 and did not apply to 3 starting in 1945.

I would argue that if you are going to use that argument once you have to use it all the time. You don't get to pick and choose when the order of the sentences matter.
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Re: Devious GM Fall 1945

Postby Jegpeg » 19 Dec 2015, 17:44

EpicDim wrote:On a different rule note, I think the intent of the tank rule is different than the wording. It seems bad that armies built in SCs immediately become tanks. It is how the rule is written though.

As I wrote this rule I will comment.

The idea of the rule is that tanks are an improvement on armies and armies are therefore obsolete, I wanted a small cost associated with the upgrade and having to get it into an SC for winter seemed appropriate. It does not make sense that anyone want to build an obsolete unit. I had forgotten that I had not specifically said that tanks also replace armies for new builds but the intent was that players are allowed to build tanks and therefore there is no point building an army (unless they want to bounce with another unit and while I hadn't thought about that at the time I am quite happy with making it impossible to build obsolete units for this purpose)
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