Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

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Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby Diplomat » 10 Apr 2008, 02:22

I'm posting this question, since I would like to see the evidence myself before I decide. I've reviewed several posts and threads here in the forum regarding Hilniger, Svambini, and perhaps others posting with different names. My intention here is not to assert that any specific individual IS or IS NOT a cheater.

I believe it would do everyone good to have this information available and centralized, with the evidence that supports these allegations. That way if there are password or invite only games, people can make informed decisions about who they invite or allow into those games.

I certainly understand this is by no means proof, as this is likely something that cannot be proven in any realistic way. This is just evidence that must be taken at face value and interpreted by the individual reader.

Please post the name of the player you believe to be cheating here, along with a summary of the activity or pattern of activities that you believe supports your allegation. At a minimum you should indicate the game in which this occurred. I would suggest a summary of activities as well that you feel is important and should be looked at.

Anyone with specific knowledge of the games in question, or the players, is welcome to contribute in supplying evidence or counter argument. Statements of 'Your a cheater' or 'XYZ is a pawn of ABC' are just not helpful. Please keep that in mind.
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby lemination » 10 Apr 2008, 06:33

I believe I should post here to share my thoughts on Hilniger. Throughout most of the first Top10 game I was allied with Hilniger/Savimbi. I had played in a past game with them as well, where I was likewise allied with them, and it was because of that game I invited Hilniger into the top10 game (and he brought Savimbi with him). I was informed at the beginning of the top10 game that Hilniger/Savimbi generally play in the same games, and are always allied in these games and do dual wins. I assumed from then on that this would happen in this game. I allied with them because it offered me the greatest potential of winning the game. I tolerated them throughout the game because it was in my best interests for that game, but they crossed the line numerous times in how they dealt with other players in the game.

I was Turkey in that game. Savimbi was Italy. Hilniger was France. As I was allied with them I organized moves, and did agreements on how we would work out the Mediterranean and the such. I dealt exclusively with Italian troops for most of the game (which was natural, being Turkey). Given this, these are the number of messages received from each of the two.
144 messages from France - Hilniger
9 messages from Italy - Savimbi
All of the messages from Italy were short messages, just sent to reiterate what France had told me Italy would do.

Based on this, I have drawn the conclusion that Hilniger and Savimbi are separate people, but Hilniger most likely just tells Savimbi what moves to do. That is just a my thought though, and it could easily be wrong. I'm also assuming that someone intelligent wouldn't make two accounts, and then consistently join the same games and do dual wins. It just seems like they would try to disguise it somehow, and that is something I have not seen Hilniger do.

They are, at the very least, metagaming, something that should be looked down upon. They are allied in every game they play, and have never broken the alliance. Hilniger is doing this for points in the top10. Hilniger also asked me to help him win in the next Top10 game, in return for his alliance in that one.

It is also notable that Hilniger declined to be in Lemon's Invite Game (the next top10 game), even though at the time we were on good terms, I invited him multiple times (still allied in game), after Savimbi was not invited into it. Hilniger gave his reason as being "once a day isn't fast enough".

Because of this, I will avoid games that have both Savimbi and Hilniger in it. But I have no reason to avoid games with a single one or the other.
It is notable that both Savimbi and Hilniger have played games without the other. If one person was playing as both accounts, the number of games would be taking up quite a large amount of time.

I would be interested in seeing the messages sent to and from Savimbi to Hilniger in that Top10 game. Maybe Avalanche could look at them and share his thoughts?
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper: jason and 8ball this mean you?

Postby Hilniger » 10 Apr 2008, 12:34

Based on the total scores I would say that two scores look very suspiciuous:
jason 9 games 33 points
infinity8ball 8 games 32 points
How can one explain such a high score in almost every game if not by cheating in some way or another?
It's certainly not explained by the game skill because in my experience 8ball is a very mediocre player.

As for me I played many games but also lost quite a few of them due to fair play on my side.
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby Hilniger » 10 Apr 2008, 12:45

IMO it is just as interesting to look at the (pre-)alliances others had in the Top10 game. Such as the Russia-Germany alliance which lasted until the bitter end when I brilliantly eliminated Germany in a textbook combination of moves :P

And ask Austria what his role was in the Russia-Germany-Austria pre-alliance.
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby infinity8ball » 10 Apr 2008, 14:45

1) There was nothing pre-game about my alliance. I challenge Hilniger to provide any proof whatsoever in favor of that accusation. ESPECIALLY in light of the fact that such an alliance and opening had been posted by me in the strategy section PRIOR to the game even being formed.

2) How is it cheating to do well and get solo victories? That makes no sense whatsoever.

3) Much like Lemin, I had a lot of messages from France, but only 1 from Italy.

4) I'm not sure this forum is the place for this thread. Perhaps an admin can move it to the proper location?
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby lemination » 10 Apr 2008, 19:20

I would just like to point out that at the beginning of the game the alliances consisted of-> France/Italy/England. Turkey/Russia. Austria/Germany. I also had an alliance with Germany that shared information, and planned on attacking Russia together, when he became to strong.
They switched to Turkey/France/Italy/England in the mid-game, when Russia become very strong, and I stabbed him. This forced Austria/Germany/Russia to ally. It basically consisted that way until the last year or two of the game, when it switched to Turkey/Russia vs France/Italy for the win.

Russia=8ball
Turkey=me
Germany=radishes
France/Italy=Hilniger/Savimbi

That is a very basic overview of the alliances though. It certainly is more intricate then that.

P.S. I have played with both 8ball and Hilniger in multiple games, and I can say that 8ball and Hilniger are both good players. My problem with Hilniger arises because he uses underhanded techniques to get an advantage, and doesn't understand how to be respectful of other players.
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby Diplomat » 10 Apr 2008, 19:57

Hilniger,

Your record is not too far off of the 2 you mention:

Hilniger total score: 50 points from:
19 won games
27 finished games
1 surrenders
5 active games
rank: 1

Thats a win rate of over 70%. I'm certainly not saying that others cannot or are not cheating. I'm just asking for supporting evidence from specific games for ALL players who might be cheating. It sure seems like there are a ton of people out there questioning your play from before you were top of the charts. I can't imagine this sits well with you, knowing no one respects your efforts, but perhaps you do feel good about it. I don't know.
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby Diplomat » 10 Apr 2008, 20:01

Just to be fair I looked at Infinity and Jason.

I could not get Jason's stats to come up, but here are Infinities.

infinity8ball total score: 32 points from:
8 won games
13 finished games
0 surrenders
4 active games
rank: 6

Thats a win rate of 61%.

If anyone has Jason's #s feel free to post them here.
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Re: Cheaters should NOT Prosper - Hilniger, does this mean you?

Postby mdmuff » 10 Apr 2008, 20:48

Rest of Top 10

lemination total score: 39 points from:
# 13 won games
# 30 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 2 active games
# rank: 2

43%

Master Radishes total score: 38 points from:
# 15 won games
# 38 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 4 active games
# rank: 3

39%

IAmPutin total score: 36 points from:
# 14 won games
# 21 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 2 active games
# rank: 4

67%

jason total score: 33 points from:
# 9 won games
# 12 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 4 active games
# rank: 5

75%


Hillbar total score: 31 points from:
# 10 won games
# 12 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 7 active games
# rank: 7

83%

Avalanche total score: 29 points from:
# 11 won games
# 16 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 0 active games
# rank: 8

69%

Batsman total score: 29 points from:
# 9 won games
# 13 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 4 active games
# rank: 9

69%

revans total score: 29 points from:
# 9 won games
# 14 finished games
# 0 surrenders
# 7 active games
# rank: 10

64%
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