AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

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AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby sinnybee » 24 Sep 2014, 00:57

Game 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1 is the 24th PDVT game to finish, being the second of 8 semifinals / Phase 2 games to finish.

Image Image Buachaille earned 47 points in game D1: 3way DRAW 30 Turkey 14 Greece 3
Image Image AlmanMEin earned 42 points in game D1: 3way DRAW 30 Britain 12 Czechoslov. 0
Image Image glacier777 earned 40 points in game D1: 3way DRAW 30 Italy 10 Sweden 0

Image Image Thorntonian Empire earned 4 points in game D1: France 4 Rumania 0

Image Image entoz earned 0 points in game D1: Germany 0 Spain 0
Image Image SaltySailor earned 0 points in game D1: Poland 0 Egypt 0
Image Image tourdefeu1 earned 0 points in game D1: USSR 0 Yugoslavia 0

Congratulations to all 7 players for not surrendering!
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby Thorntonian Empire » 24 Sep 2014, 07:29

Even though it says that the victors write the history, I will give the tragic tale of the French fighters who gave their lives to try to defend their homeland.

It all started when I learned that Spain was the pawn of Germany. Germany was non-responsive for an entire season of planning and with a Spanish pawn could easily crush me if I sent my forces to Britain or Italy. Alas the only option was to fight against the Germans and the Spanish which resulted in a German and Spanish death but hindered French expansion for many years.

An early move by Italy upon France made it imperative to form an alliance with Italy and his greatest ally of Turkey. It was named the "Southern Triple." The idea seemed great at the time as the North were all in civil wars but alas I did not think this through. The only way for a Southern Triple to succeed is for Germany and France to team up initially to defeat Britain and for then France and Italy to team up to defeat Germany. However, Germany was dead and there was no way that France could be successful against Britain. It got to the point where France was forced to betray its alliance with Britain or its alliance with Italy and Turkey since both wanted me to attack the other.

It was obvious the game could have ended in two ways. A three way draw between Britain, Italy, and Turkey or a three way draw between Britain, France, and Turkey. Poland and USSR were obviously going to die eventually. I liked the Italians very much but knew that it was either him or me and this is Survival of the Fittest so I had to make the hard choice and stab someone I liked. My plan was to stab Italy and then convince Turkey to join Britain and me in a "Corner Alliance" which could have easily been successful unlike the Southern Triple. However, in the same turn I stabbed Italy, Britain stabbed me. Whether this move was out of greed or out of a desire to prevent France from expanding is unknown but it is known that it sealed the fate of the game to end in a three way draw between Britain, Italy, and Turkey.

No one was going to get a solo, because no one even tried. A disappointing outcome to a tragic fight with the French trying to survive as long as possible with both sides closing in.

However, congratulations still go to the victors as they did outlast the French
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby sinnybee » 24 Sep 2014, 07:44

I'm honored that all 3 of your posts have been in the Versailles Tournament AARs subforum--thank you for your contribution to the post-game reports!
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby glacier777 » 24 Sep 2014, 09:10

Sorry for the wait, I've been in the city all day.

So, I drew Italy. Fantastic. Really looking forward to this. A long as I don't draw Sweden, I'll be cooking on gas. Game starts, I draw Sweden... :roll: But hey, this is going to be so fun. Surrounded but loads of minors while mine is far away. I have ears everywhere and the most options.

First impressions:
Turkey - The most likely ally. We begin discussing this pretty fast.
Poland - Pretty standard, not as good as Turkey.
Germany - Same as Poland.
France - A superb player, it is obvious. Likely ally. I don't like him though and I know I won't as the game progresses.
Russia/Yugoslavia - Russia reveals he has Yugo in exchange for my minor. He makes a suggestion which benefits me and I like him. Another likely ally.
Czechoslovakia - A good player, we strike an alliance.
Britain/Spain/Greece/Rumania and Egypt are all silent.

First year:
Good relations with France/Turkey continue. I spend about an hour messaging Czechoslovakia for him to reveal his minor. I've just realised that this is Alman all over! (Czech was making fun of me for most of this hour :P ). Britain messages me informing me has has Czech. I am astonished. Britain revealed it was a game plan. Psych out the opposition using his minor. Impressive. I guess that France/Britain are our two soloists from the first round - Turkey encourages this - even though you were a soloist ;) .
As a result of my pretty impressive diplomacy and Yugoslavia being very nice, I net three builds for Italy. Sweden would have gained Den but Britain messed up his moves.

The first build turn was strangely tough. I had lucrative offers from France, Britain, Germany, Turkey and USSR - all of whom I had kept promises and agreements with during the first year. I had to chose. I chose Britain and Turkey, we were natural allies. Also, Turkey warned about France's skill. I stabbed France and Yugoslavia.
Russia wasn't pleased. Sorry Russia.
France responded in a clam way, like I knew he would.
Buachaille wrote:The second spanner was somehow France discovered about my orchestrated campaign. Doh (any takers for letting this cat out the bag?)

That was sort of me. But no one really let it out of the bag. France sussed it out. Here is part of a message France sent me after the stab:
France wrote:Third,
I don't think you betrayed me because you were scared of me. We had the opportunity to talk and I don't recall you ever voicing your concerns of me going for Austria or invading Piedmont or anything. And, I am pretty sure that it is not the best plan of Italy to randomly pick up and invade France. Because the best opportunity to betray someone is when you can actually take a supply center from them which you could have easily done maybe in a year or so. Because of that, and that you were previously anti-Germany. It is my belief that someone convinced you to push West. I may be wrong about that. But I don't think it was your idea initially to go for me. If it was then I guess I can't convince you to stop but I am pretty sure it was someone else's idea. And think about it. We are currently in a stalemate. Neither of us will get any builds. And neither of us will lose anything. The act of putting two countries in a stalemate is a basic manipulation by those who try to get solos. That means, if someone convinced you to go for me, that person is manipulating you to go for a solo. If you decided that on your own then it just wasn't a brilliant move, no offense. Waiting a year would have been better to kill me off.

Fourth,
I don't think it was Poland as you and Egypt bounced in Libya. It wasn't USSR because you hit Beograd but probably Turkey that convinced you. Yes Turkey was hindered in the first year but if he was the one to convince you to invade me I am sorry but you are being manipulated by Turkey. Britain did exactly what he told me he was going to do and he is going to continue to invade Germany.


I changed course. I moved away from France and the Southern Triple started as the others said. Here are the reasons why:
- France was persuasive
- Britain made a couple of mistakes, when faced with such strong players, these mistakes made a difference
- Turkey was pushing for me to be anti-France for ages. Almost, "kill off the best player!". This didn't sit right with me. This is part of a message I sent to Turkey, I still stand by everything I said:
I wrote:- I believe that every game should be a fair game, no luck. In order to achieve this there should obviously be no cheating. In a game like this, that is not an issue. However, the other part is that the best players should automatically find each other and become friends. This separates the strong from the weak and means that there are three or four players (the best ones) ready to play for a solo. This means the best player wins.

- I therefore always try to ally with the best players. In Versailles I am able to find 'major ally' and a 'minor ally'. Typically, the best players in each half of the board. Because I am Italy, I can ally with anyone so I am finding two 'major allies'.
Hands down, the two best players are you and France.

Your concept of eliminating the strongest player is alien to me. Even if France was GSMX, I would ally with him. He deserves the chance to be in the end game. That is the time when we prevent him soloing. And if we can't prevent it then he wins and he deserves that win.


I hold these values quite strongly, they are drawn from my values in real life.
In Diplomacy, having these values undoubtedly holds me back from more success. You can imagine that I am always reluctant to stab, but that is a different value that I have.

As you can see, the only logical conclusion according to my values is an alliance with France and you.

So I will go off on a bit of a tangent here. This game proved to me that me and Diplomacy don't mix too well. I can make allies really easily, as this game proved. However, I am driven by my moral values which does hold me back. I am not ruthless one bit. I want to game to be fair at all times. The issue, is I am proud of this. Which means no, or very few solos for me! But I enjoy playing and I get draws regularly so I'm not quitting or anything.

Anyway, back to the game.
The game was a bit boring after this to be honest.
I can't remember how it exactly panned out. France stabbed me and we made peace. Then I stabbed France. Then Britain made peace with France. Then Britain stabs France, then I stab Turkey. Then I make peace with Turkey. Then France threatens to throw the game to Britain. Then G/P/U are eventually eliminated and the draw is called.
I also withdrew from the game a lot. I just burnt out. I lost interest. This got worse when I burnt out in RL too. I still think that I would have not stabbed Turkey had it not been for the jolt in my personality for a few days. I appreciate that Turkey put up with me!

I never really talked about Sweden. Erm, Sweden died after the Southern Triple formed haha - the Northern 4 all ganged up on it :evil:

So, final impressions:
Britain - Great player. Great guy. Really liked your style in the first turn. Well done buddy.
France - Superb payer. Slightly too assertive for me but I have huge respect for you!
Turkey - My favourite player this game. Well done!

Good luck in future games. It was a pleasure playing with you all.
Hopefully we can hear from Alman at some point.

And once again, thank you for organising this Sinny!
Last edited by glacier777 on 24 Sep 2014, 23:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby Buachaille » 24 Sep 2014, 16:14

An interesting game, with some better players than me. I enjoyed it a lot. Just under 400 messages sent and quality of the comms I received was very high generally.

For me it started with USSR demanding Black Sea or else he'd pin me in using his minor Yug and little help from a French owned Rumania. I tried very much to reach out to Poland who was professing to be my ally but when it turned out he owned Egypt it became obvious why he was making no moves to help me against USSR. Fortunately however there proved to be no trust between Poland and the paranoid USSR. Luckily for me the Versailles map offers room for a much more conducive relationship between Turkey and Italy, a point I was only to keen to point out and it was my good fortune that Italy proved not only amenable to this but a capable communicator and a trustworthy ally. Having Greece as my minor proved my saving grace in surviving this very slow, uncomfortable start.

In parallel with this, I was discovering the characters on the board. France I could tell from his communication was probably the highest ranked player on the board. Astute probably doesn't cover it. This was confirmed to me when Thorntonian revealed his own identity accidentally by using himself as an example of a "tactical genius". It was meant to be a steer away from his identity but was transparent enough. Britain, whilst initially notable by his absence was proving also to be a very capable communicator. The combination of these factors and my blossoming relationship with Italy made my path clear; focus all my energies possible to persuade Britain, Italy and Germany (with his minor Spain) to attack France. That was the theory at least. Italy could help in the Balkans, no pressure from him in the Med would give me the space to breath and deal with an obstinate USSR and pressure in the North from Britain and Italy's minor (Sweden), would help that. I'd have to keep my options open with Poland as him and his minor could finish my game if they allied with USSR.

The first spanner in the works as we moved towards the mid game was Britain insisted on working with France against Germany. I tried everything I could to get them to work together against France but there seemed to be trust or communication issues or both. The second spanner was somehow France discovered about my orchestrated campaign. Doh (any takers for letting this cat out the bag?). To be fair to him TE was pragmatic about it and offered up his Southern Triple as a solution. I cautiously agreed although knowing this would be unlikely to hold. I would suggest also that France never really let go of his alliance with Britain here and which was perhaps fuelled by a decrease in comms from Italy and an increase from Britain. The alliance proved to be the sort where one partner races ahead (TE) and then turns on another very quickly. Luckily I'd been warning Italy and Britain of this possibility all along and the switch from F/I/T to B/I/T was easy enough.

Around this time Poland and USSR had patched up their differences no doubt fuelled by my turning on Egypt to secure my tender underside and the increasingly obvious nature of my relationship with Italy. Fortunately though France's duplicitous nature had foregone any possibility of him building a new relationship with F/P/U as this may have changed the course of the game. B/I/T stayed the dominant partnership on the board as we moved towards the end game. At this stage, I have to hand it to TE, he explored every other avenue open to him; he was going to kingmake Britain, Italy and myself at various stages as well as professing never to kingmake anyone because it was cowardly. He was and I mean this very much as a compliment; a relentless bastard in trying to escape his situation.

There's irony however in France's assertion that no one attempted a solo. I'd argue that he played out his demise very much to ensure it didn't happen and that he did that effectively. If at any point I'd attacked Italy, France had kept a sufficiently good relationship with Britain to ensure that the 3 of them would be able to ally against me to stop the leader. Similarly if at any point Britain had gone for the solo; France had impeded his progress enough that Italy and I would have been able to handle it. I'd be interested in anyone's opinion about where and when the opportunity to solo was missed?

Props must go to Italy who came back from some real life distractions in the mid game to keep the board balanced effectively from a difficult position as the weakest partner in the alliance. It would also be rude of me not to say how much I enjoyed comms with Britain. I was happy ending this very entertaining game in partnership with these two players :D
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby Thorntonian Empire » 24 Sep 2014, 22:31

Well, I have to agree with Turkey's assessment of the game.

I was very cautious of Turkey when I learned he was trying to get people to invade me before he even learned my identity. I was able to at least convince Italy to defend himself from Turkey which prevented Turkey from an easy route of a solo by the end. I was just disappointed that Turkey didn't even try at the end to go for a solo. Maybe he thought I wouldn't accept a draw at the end of the game and that accepting it himself was a safe bet. Well, it doesn't matter now. Either way I did prevent all nations from attaining a solo so my end goal of game was a success since it was clear early on the French were not going to win.
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby Alman » 24 Sep 2014, 23:26

First let me echo the other players in stating how much I enjoyed this game and the high level of communication in it. There was only one player whose level of play left a little to be desired. And that was I.

As Britain and Czech, I decided to start with some subterfuge. Czech was immediately communicating and talking with the players while Britain was silent. I allowed Britain to be silent for a couple of days while I used my Czech agents to listen and gather the lay of the land. A couple of players quickly guessed my major. I was Turkey or Poland, maybe France. No one thought I was Britain because Britain wasn't even in the game yet.
While this was very effective to start with and gave me what I felt was an early advantage, sadly, it was the most valuable Czechoslovakia would be to me. While excellent diplomats and agents, the Czechs proved to be poor fighters and once the shooting started they didn't last too long and didn't play any major role in the story of the game.
Exit, stage left.

Meanwhile, now finally having brought Britain to the table it was not long before I would form the two close relationships that would define the game for me. One plied me with French wine while the other with Turkish delight. These two great players couldn't be more different in their respective styles and I totally enjoyed each one.

Turkey's was very much like this:
Red-Velvet-Throw-Pillow.jpg


While France's can more be described as this:
granite.jpg

Both were very nice and professional. I enjoyed both throughout the game and was definitely in the presence of superior players to myself.

So, without going into too much detail, this is how things unfolded from the perspective of the UK.

My early alliance with France was immediately questioned by Turkey who, as he has mentioned, was sounding alarms, running from house to house, claiming that we would all die at the hands of the French. He was impassioned and convincing. Although he failed at the time to shake me from my alliance with France, he came very close and he did sow seeds of doubt that later caused me to make some miscalculations. I will come clean and admit that it was I that revealed to France the anti-France campaign of Turkey. :oops: Attempt to ingratiate myself to him. It did yield me some advantage in the short term and allowed me to play friendship with both these great players against one another.
I headed east after Russia. As France began to make headway in the south and it became clear that Russia would not be a major threat with his Polish problems, I proposed to Russia that we call it a day and I would stab France because I was very afraid he was about to become too big and unstoppable and the fears that the little birdy had planted were sprouting.

So I stabbed France. I had talked to Italy and explained to him that this was our chance to go after France. Italy equivocated and didn't press the advantage. As he has mentioned, I, during that time, made a couple of stupid mistakes in orders. Total amateur night. That did not help. Then, in a stunning series of moves, France stopped my stab dead in its tracks. Russia then chose to make threatening moves back my way.
I executed half the diplomatic staff and fired the other half. I came crawling back to France in sackcloth and ashes and begged his forgiveness. "The Turkey made me do it", etc. He forgave me and I renewed the attack in Germany and Scandinavia. Turkey continued to urge me to regard France as the great threat but by this time I was more worried that Turkey was going to solo.
[As a side note, this stage of the game coincided with the end of my vacation and returning to work involved stepping into some crises which caused me to not have the heart or patience in the game, nor the time to really study. Turkey called attention to the change in my approach and I tried to adjust, but the quality of my play never recovered.]
[Side, side note: I share my friend Italy's problem with the idea of struggling with some of the cut-throat plays in this game. It doesn't come natural to me and I am still figuring that out. Total sympathy Glacier! I'm with you!]

I begged and begged Turkey to carve himself a good slice of Italian, but he was true to his alliance and couldn't be shaken. I had been wary of Italy ever since the French invasion debacle but I still could not shake Turkey's loyalty. This had the effect of making me truer to France because I feared that Turkey would solo during Italy's own loyalty to him. I had hoped that if I could spark battle between Italy and Turkey, I would then have the opening I would need to solo.
Alas, it was not to be. France did reward my loyalty by allowing me into his centers as things began to collapse, but even then, I was not careful enough and if Turkey had pushed harder or if France had turned on me, I would have been dead. My promising solo career was over and I was just an ageing singer with the cracks really starting to show. When they said draw, I accepted as fast as I could.

In closing may I say that Buachaille was not only an awesome player, a really amazing diplomat and a nice guy, but almost svengali in his ability to influence the board. I accused him of being CharlieP at one point. :) His ability to put together who we were based on play and message style was freaky.
As for T.E. He also was an amazing player and diplomat. His style is highly effective and he managed to get in my head as well as Buachaille did. I should charge them both rent for how much space they took in my head (but it was empty space, so I guess we'll let it go.)
I enjoyed playing with Italy even if things didn't work out the way I had hoped between us. I am stunned to learn that Poland was my friend Salty, my beloved captain in the Cup of Nations Tourney. I have a lot of respect for Salty, but in this game I couldn't figure out what Poland's game was.

In the end I am grateful that my mistakes didn't cost me a spot in the winners circle and I would love to play with any of these fine gentlemen again, particularly Buachaille and Thorntonian Empire.
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby Alman » 24 Sep 2014, 23:35

After reading my own AAR and rereading Glaciers, I realize how our similar approach, personality, and situation, being courted heavily by these two strong players on the ends led us to both struggle to coordinate and be the players we needed to be.

Glacier, we'll have to play again together and watch our tendencies. :D You're a good man.
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby glacier777 » 24 Sep 2014, 23:46

AlmanMEin wrote:After reading my own AAR and rereading Glaciers, I realize how our similar approach, personality, and situation, being courted heavily by these two strong players on the ends led us to both struggle to coordinate and be the players we needed to be.

Glacier, we'll have to play again together and watch our tendencies. :D You're a good man.

I was about to say that. We both were stuck in between France and Turkey.
I completely agree :)
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Re: AAR: 86267. PD Versailles Tournament Game D1

Postby SaltySailor » 29 Sep 2014, 17:50

Almanein, you said you struggled with knowing what my (Poland's) game was. That makes two of us. Playing either of the two pressure cooker countries, Germany and Poland, sandwiched between all of the others is a challenge in Versailles. A challenge that I haven't cracked yet. I decided to try and take out USSR quickly when/if he was to go south or north. Instead we hit in the middle like to rams head-butting. This wasn't going anywhere, so in Spring'33 we ended up in an alliance, albeit a nervous one. By this time Italy had reached my western border as Italy, England, and France, were devouring Germany.

In the south, my Egyptian forces were working well with Turkey and Greece, or so I thought. By Fall'33 we had taken Tunisia and in Spring'34, Egypt was poised in the Tyrrhenian Sea & Adriatic Sea and Greece was in the Ionian. WE were all set to really start to give Italy some trouble when... my Turkish/Greek ally turned and stabbed Egypt. His alliance with Italy was obvious as Greece never moved west of Beograd/Ionian. Oh well. Egypt didn't last long from this point.

Meanwhile, in the north, in Winter'33 I was petitioning Britain to turn on France. Britain had France outnumbered on the water 4:2 and it looked like a fine time to bridge the channel. If we had pacified Scandinavia, Poland and USSR could have begun moving southwest against Italy. This tide never turned however. Britain decided to wait before turning on France and by Fall'34 France had taken the Iberian and his forces were ready to be redeployed north. Britain took out Poland's Scandinavian holdings and together with Italy and the upsurging Turkey, squeezed Poland to death in Galicia 6 years later.

It was a good game, but my Poland strategy needs some work. Well, first I must find one... and then it needs work.

It's a tough game when you cant get yourself to an edge of the map and put your back to the wall.
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