Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

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Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby super_dipsy » 26 Mar 2014, 06:40

Notes on this proposal. While I would love to make an ice-hot proposal like some of the other mind-blowing ones, I just don't have the amazing imagination and creativity of the rest of you :) . But I would like to try something that sort of goes slightly against the Nomic ethos. I don't know about the rest of you, but I find it frustrating when you try to fulfill the conditions laid out in what is already a pretty complex ruleset, only to discover that you made a silly mistake in your execution (eg wrong colour, not getting the text in the right order, etc). I would like to introduce an additional 'judgement request' mechanism to allow players to appeal that although they didn't get things quite right the intent was clear. I realize some will say that if you don't follow the precise letter of the law then you deserve what you get, but I think the game suffers when you are forced to double check through pages and pages just to make sure you have not missed a dotted i or a crossed t.

EDITED 05:33 UK time 27/3/14
- clarified section b)
EDITED 14:03 UK time 26/3/14
- Clarify that the appeal is made to the judge of the turn that has just been adjudicated

311. This rule is an addendum to 301, and where it conflicts this rule takes precedence. Following the adjudication post described in Rule 301, there is a 24 hour grace period in which any players can appeal to the Appeals judge (the judge of the turn in which the adjudication was made) if they feel the intent of any of their own posts in the turn proposal thread was clear even though the execution may have been technically inaccurate. The Appeals judge will rule upon any such appeal following the same procedures laid down in 212 for judgement requests, with the exception that appeals will not stop the next turn from progressing, and that any appeals that remain unresolved after 24 hours are deemed to have been rejected. If the Appeals judge rules any appeals successful then the judge will make a new adjudication post in the same thread accordingly.
a) An appeal should be made in the thread by posting 'The Spirit is Willing but the Flesh is Weak' followed by the details of any appeals that player wishes to make. The formatting of this request does not have to be precise, but if the Appeals judge does not realize it is an appeal then of course it will not be ruled upon!
b) The Appeals judge does not have to rule on any appeal, although he or she is encouraged to do so in good faith. If the judge elects not to rule on the appeal, the appeal fails
c) The original adjudication post may change the game status, and if an appeal is successful this may alter that game status. Since the subsequent proposal may start before the appeals process is finished, the new proposal will start with the game status as dictated by the original adjudication post. Any change of state resulting from successful appeals will be applied at the earliest opportunity, with any disputes resolved by the new turn judge.



Very happy to work on the wording, the particularly tricky situation is when there is a mismatch between state for the new turn and a potential change to that state from an appeal. But I didn't want to stop a new turn since that would break up the flow. I am sort of proposing a quick sanity check which can run simultaneously. After all, new proposals are often not posted very soon after the adjudication post of the previous turn.
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby super_dipsy » 26 Mar 2014, 06:54

Putin's Stamp

EDITED 05:29 UK time 27/3/14
- clarified section C
EDITED 13:59 UK time 26/3/14
- change referenced rule from 204 to 304 (and 304 is narfable so this is allowed)


Putin’s Stamp bequeaths on the possessor (henceforth referred to as ‘Putin’) the power to change the adoption criteria for the particular voting round to a simple majority.

At any time during the voting process of a proposal, Putin may employ the stamp. To do so, Putin must publish YOU’VE BEEN STAMPED in capitals and on its own line. Colours are optional but neutral is not allowed and the font size must be the same as for the legal vote. This has the following effects:

1. The voting phase in which Putin's Stamp is used will only require a simple majority to pass, overriding (narfing) Rule 304 for the turn
2. Putin loses 5 points for using the stamp

Putin’s Stamp has other properties, as follows:

A Possession: Putin’s stamp is owned by the active player with the lowest score at the start of the turn following its creation
B Flow:
1. When a new turn starts, Putin’s Stamp passes to the active player with the lowest score at the start of the turn excluding the current owner.
2. At any time during a voting phase, if Putin has not used the stamp then he can choose to sell it to to another player (including the current proposer) for an agreed +ve number of points, transferred immediately if the agreement is made. The purchasing player must have a +ve number of points equal or greater to the purchase price. This form of transfer can only happen once in a voting round.
C Legacy: If the owner of Putin's stamp becomes inactive, the stamp will be held by the most recent judge until the start of the next turn at which point the Stamp is allocated as laid out in B.1.
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby Palin » 26 Mar 2014, 12:12

I don't know if I really like this... The law should be clear and precise.

However, who should the judge be? Since the request is made after the adjudication, I presume it's the new turn's judge? I think it should be made clear.

Does Putin Stamp remind me of the earlier Stalin's thingy? Concerning C, since the user becomes inactive at the end of a turn, shouldn't it just go to the user with the lowest points for the new turn?
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby Crunkus » 26 Mar 2014, 13:33

super_dipsy wrote:Putin's Stamp

Putin’s Stamp bequeaths on the possessor (henceforth referred to as ‘Putin’) the power to change the adoption criteria for the particular voting round to a simple majority.

At any time during the voting process of a proposal, Putin may employ the stamp. To do so, Putin must publish YOU’VE BEEN STAMPED in capitals and on its own line. Colours are optional but neutral is not allowed and the font size must be the same as for the legal vote. This has the following effects:

1. The voting phase in which Putin's Stamp is used will only require a simple majority to pass, overriding Rule 204 for the turn
2. Putin loses 5 points for using the stamp

Putin’s Stamp has other properties, as follows:

A Possession: Putin’s stamp is owned by the active player with the lowest score at the start of the turn following its creation
B Flow:
1. When a new turn starts, Putin’s Stamp passes to the active player with the lowest score at the start of the turn excluding the current owner.
2. At any time during a voting phase, if Putin has not used the stamp then he can choose to sell it to to another player (including the current proposer) for an agreed +ve number of points, transferred immediately if the agreement is made. The purchasing player must have a +ve number of points equal or greater to the purchase price. This form of transfer can only happen once in a voting round.
C Legacy: If the owner of Putin's stamp becomes inactive, the stamp will be held by the most recent judge until the start of the next turn


a Thing's effect cannot override a rule or rule clause that is not narfable.
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby connect4 » 26 Mar 2014, 13:54

super_dipsy wrote:Putin's Stamp

Putin’s Stamp bequeaths on the possessor (henceforth referred to as ‘Putin’) the power to change the adoption criteria for the particular voting round to a simple majority.

At any time during the voting process of a proposal, Putin may employ the stamp. To do so, Putin must publish YOU’VE BEEN STAMPED in capitals and on its own line. Colours are optional but neutral is not allowed and the font size must be the same as for the legal vote. This has the following effects:

1. The voting phase in which Putin's Stamp is used will only require a simple majority to pass, overriding Rule 204 for the turn
2. Putin loses 5 points for using the stamp

Putin’s Stamp has other properties, as follows:

A Possession: Putin’s stamp is owned by the active player with the lowest score at the start of the turn following its creation
B Flow:
1. When a new turn starts, Putin’s Stamp passes to the active player with the lowest score at the start of the turn excluding the current owner.
2. At any time during a voting phase, if Putin has not used the stamp then he can choose to sell it to to another player (including the current proposer) for an agreed +ve number of points, transferred immediately if the agreement is made. The purchasing player must have a +ve number of points equal or greater to the purchase price. This form of transfer can only happen once in a voting round.
C Legacy: If the owner of Putin's stamp becomes inactive, the stamp will be held by the most recent judge until the start of the next turn


Haven't looked much at this, but for the Thing, I think you missed this in the cut/paste. 204 was modified to 304 by you last round (which then fixes what Crunkus said above, if you reword it as "narfing 304 for the turn", or something like that...)
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby Crunkus » 26 Mar 2014, 14:00

Ah I see.

304...that definitely works.
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby super_dipsy » 26 Mar 2014, 15:58

connect4 wrote:Haven't looked much at this, but for the Thing, I think you missed this in the cut/paste. 204 was modified to 304 by you last round (which then fixes what Crunkus said above, if you reword it as "narfing 304 for the turn", or something like that...)

Ooops, good catch! I remembered I read it was narfable, and that is why I was sure it would work, but of course I have my numbers wrong! I will change it.

Palin wrote:However, who should the judge be? Since the request is made after the adjudication, I presume it's the new turn's judge? I think it should be made clear.

super_dipsy wrote:Following the adjudication post described in Rule 301, there is a 24 hour grace period in which any players can appeal to the judge of that turn

I tried to make this clear but it sounds like my language wasn't good enough :) . My intention is that the 'judge' is the judge of the turn that has just been adjudicated. This is because there is this weird gap between the posting of the adjudication post which as far as 301 is concerned is the end of the turn, and the posting on the next proposal. But I will try to spell this out better.

Palin wrote:Does Putin Stamp remind me of the earlier Stalin's thingy? Concerning C, since the user becomes inactive at the end of a turn, shouldn't it just go to the user with the lowest points for the new turn?

Indeed it does :) . When I changed Rule 204 to remove the bit about the approval requirements going to 50% after two rounds, that was supposed to be paired with this Thing. Otherwise we run the whole game requiring 75% every time. I had the votes to pass the Thing, but sadly some votes were made in the wrong shade of Blue and so did not count, and the Thing creation failed. I think we should correct that because otherwise as I say we are left with no relaxation to 50%.

Palin wrote:I don't know if I really like this... The law should be clear and precise

I totally agree, which is why I was hesitant about this. But although I would normally argue that, this game has got millions more pages than any other I have played and we have already had three or four run-ins with people just missing something critical in the definitions for posting which have in my view broken up the game and made it less satisfying. But your concern is perfectly legitimate and an understandable reason to vote NAY :)
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby super_dipsy » 26 Mar 2014, 16:10

Palin wrote:Concerning C, since the user becomes inactive at the end of a turn, shouldn't it just go to the user with the lowest points for the new turn?

Yes, I thought of that, but there is a problem. A user may become inactive DURING a turn - the user can simply state that they are leaving the game (as in 113). If I transferred the stamp to the lowest player, then that player would not be allowed to have the stamp at the start of the next turn since that is not allowed. If this transfer happened near the end of a turn, that user might miss out. At least that was my reasoning :) . I don't mind to be honest, I could change it.
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby Palin » 26 Mar 2014, 19:07

I think it should be made clear that it goes to the judge if one player becomes inactive during a turn and to the next lowest-points player if they become inactive at the end of the turn.
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Re: Proposal 311 - The Spirit is Willing

Postby Ugluk » 26 Mar 2014, 19:20

This opens things up to manipulation by the player. I could vote AYE in the correct red, then NAY in the incorrect red, and argue either my spirit or deliberate subterfuge, as it suited me.
Niakan is a tease.
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