Nomic 5 Proposal 3XX: Out of Sequence

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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby pjkon » 25 Mar 2014, 17:22

Oops. I misread the thing and thought that is was the last player in turn order not the next.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby connect4 » 25 Mar 2014, 17:28

super_dipsy wrote:
connect4 wrote:And actually it should be sd's proposal, no? As he was active after 310.

That is something we have not defined I think. When a player goes inactive, they are removed from the roster. When a plyer comes back, where do they go on the roster? My assumption was at the bottom (so on that basis I would be initially on the bottom but then Palin would go below me. But then I realized that cannot work, because then I could get two goes in a round (make a proposal, go inactive, return and then go back at the bottom so I can have another go). But since we don;t keep the original roster order for posterity (you simply move people onto the inactive list) I am not sure what else to do?


I think we are covered by the original rules here. Apologies first of all if this doesn't make sense, I am using my phone voice recognition thing, so it may miss interpret some words I'm saying. I also happened to be in the car, so I can't really proofread.

In short, I think 201 (but it could be a different rules) states that the turn order consists of players in order in alphabetical order. I am not hundred percent positive because I'm not looking at the world, but I believe that would provide us with the precedent to say that means all players in a turn order currently have to be in alphabetical order. If so, then that would mean that you are the current person in the turn order, because you have you would've put back into the turn order at the next player. Using that precedent also avoids the confusion of what happens if a new player joins the game. They go in there off of that it will spot, and come back and when it's their turn.

Thus, based on the interpretation (which probably should be made a rule at some point), that would make it your turn.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby Ugluk » 25 Mar 2014, 18:02

super_dipsy wrote:And 4 states all unaccepted trade proposals....but again, surely there can only be one and any counter-offers?


4 is referring to proposal across the board. Yes, one player may only have one open trade proposal.

super_dipsy wrote:5 has me confused also. I realize some currencies my be on a simple scale such as orc testicles - you can't have a negative number of them because they are physical. But take points for example - if points exist on a negative to positive plane then I always have an infinite number of negative and positive points to give away. I see your point on midi-chlorians where you refer to 'dark' ones as a positive number of negative ones, but sticking to points since I can both receive and lose points whether I am positive or negative in total, then I can technically say that I possess sufficient quantity to make any offer. So for example, if I have -10 points I can offer 100 points which takes me to -110. It is not that I do not have any positive points because as I say they are all on the same line from -infinity to +infinity. I am not totally sure how to get around this - I thought for a minute you could say that you can only offer up a negative or positive value of currency depening on whether your current total of that currency is negative or positive, and you cannot offer more than the absolute value of your holding...but I am not sure that works with midi-chlorians.


I am of the opinion that deficit trading (or gifting) of currencies should not be allowed. Specifically in the case of 'points' of the traditional "win at 200" variety, my intent is to only allow offers of a positive integer value (not 9.5 points, not -10 points), such that you cannot spend what you have not earned, nor can you tank the game. e.g. I PM Crunkus to be ready to accept my imminent offer of "200 points for 1 midi-chlorian". Nor could I offer 50 dark midi-chlorians for 50 light midi-chlorians, creating jedi arch-enemies out of nothing.

Fundamentally, you should only be able to offer trades such that you approach zero. Accepting a trade is not under the same constraints.

It was late when I wrote this, so some items slipped through the cracks. Intended amendments:
- Noting that this proposals does not accommodate the trading of Things, which are not currencies.
- Establishing that all new currencies must explicitly state the parameters for trading.
- Establishing the parameters for trading existing currencies, e.g. points, midi-chlorians, stocks? e.g. noting that negative midi-chlorians are actually positive along a different path.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby Ugluk » 25 Mar 2014, 18:14

Palin wrote:I like the idea. sd is right though - the wording needs some polishing.

Concerning the negative points, perhaps it should be clear in the rule that the lowest score a user can reach as the result of an exchange is 0 points?


It is my intent to not restrict the player accepting the trade. The offered trades do need to be limited, as I've expanded on above in my response to SD.

Palin wrote:Two more questions:

1. When does the exchange take place? Immediately after the acceptance, at the end of the phase or at the end of the turn?
2. Is there any limit to the number of exchanges a user can initiate each turn/phase? Likewise, is there any limit to the number of exchanges a user can accept each turn/phase?


1. Effective immediately, but tally updates are generally not made until the final scoring phase of a round. That said, you could accept one trade, gaining a currency you did not have previously, then turn around and offer that currency in a subsequent trade within the same Rule legitimately.
2. No and no, as long as time allows, currencies are available, and there are partners to trade with.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby Ugluk » 25 Mar 2014, 18:17

Pagane wrote:Can a proposed exchange be withdrawn? Can you deny someone's acceptance of your exchange?
For example, if Crunkus is at 180 points and I''m offering 20 points for 3 Demonic Tokens, can I specify that I will not do business with Crunkus(due to him winning the game if he accepts)?


There is no provision for restricting the acceptance of your proposal by a specific player, or a player that meets some condition (e.g. "you cannot accept this trade for the win!")

This was deliberate.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby Ugluk » 25 Mar 2014, 18:21

Proposals may not be withdrawn. Acceptance or counter-offering of your proposal allows you to make a new trade proposal. You may have multiple concurrent counter-offers.

Of course, having multiple counter-offers, each valid in their own right, could result in them being accepted and sending you into negatives where you would not otherwise have been able to trade yourself into.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby Ugluk » 25 Mar 2014, 18:25

connect4 wrote:You don't have the book. And actually it should be sd's proposal, no? As he was active after 310.

For that matter, ug would have the book again.


Looks like I have jumped the gun. I have also gone inactive (twice) and returned.

Fortunately there's no rule punishing me for proposing out of turn.

I'll table this, unless SD wants to go inactive through not proposing a rule, resetting my clock.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby Ugluk » 25 Mar 2014, 18:29

I had looked at the score sheet (one Rule stale) and saw that I was up. I failed to notice that SD had returned.

Of note, connect4 is not an active player.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby super_dipsy » 25 Mar 2014, 18:34

How about this.

You change your proposal title to Proposal 312 (on hold), I will put up a 311, then we don't lose the chat. But you should be allowed to scrap it all if you want and do a different one of course.
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Re: Nomic 5 Proposal 311: Tit for Tat

Postby sinnybee » 25 Mar 2014, 19:13

super_dipsy wrote:But you should be allowed to scrap it all if you want and do a different one of course.

Sorry to interrupt you guys again...
Scrap all the orc testicles? :o
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