Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force (Pass)

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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Pagane » 14 Mar 2014, 07:32

Crunkus wrote:Bottom line: Let's all just informally agree: No fizzing.

Agreed.
A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Crunkus » 14 Mar 2014, 14:41

Okay. I made a copy of the proposal that can be used as final when the time comes, and left it in the OP.

My intent was to put a work alteration tracking copy in the OP, but I could not do so because of character limits, so I created a link to the third post in which I've placed the alteration tracking copy.

I also added a link to the proposed Thing for the turn.

I made two more alterations. For one, I noticed the original copy's FORCE FEAR had a clause which described what the ability represented had a spelling error and it was fixed to "wreak" havoc. I also added a sentence to No Fizzing which noted that the actual proposal post itself and the post outlining the proposed thing, or any game concept presented for revision and discussion during the proposal phase that would be voted on later in the voting phase was not subject to the previously stated stipulation.
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby super_dipsy » 14 Mar 2014, 17:40

Finally reading it properly now.

Reading from III. c . iv. a. 5-9
5. If one or more of the following two conditions are met:
6.The Dark Lord of the Sith cast the responded to "NAY" vote.
7.If the Dark Lord of the Sith cast the responded to "NAY" vote or had cast a "NAY" vote prior to the successful use of this ability then a successful use of this ability changes the Jedi's points by adding an amount equal to the absolute value of the midi-chlorians possessed by the Dark Lord of the Sith minus the midi-chlorians of the Jedi who used this ability. This change in points cannot be less than -10 or more than 10. If it would be less than -10, it is -10 instead. If it would be more than 10, it is 10 instead.
8.If the Jedi's points increase by the successful use of this ability, than then (~10:25 13 Mar 2014)the Dark Lord of the Sith's points decrease by the same number of points.
9.If the Jedi's points decrease by the successful use of this ability, than then (~10:25 13 Mar 2014)the Dark Lord of the Sith's points increase by the same number of points.

You may have forgotten an indent. What are the conditions referred to in 5? And what is the result? Also, I am not sure you will know that successful use of this ability resulted in a points increase or decrease for the Jedi. It is not clear to me how it can have any effect on points. Or have I misunderstood? I can see how it affects the number of midi-chlorians you hold, but I assume points are the specific game-points totals. Or am I just hopelessly confused?

and section v. following
Jedi Padawan Ability

I have a general point here. I think the line "A FORCE PUSH by a Jedi Padawan has the effect of changing the possessor of the Target Thing to the active player whose turn is scheduled to come next in the turn order after the Target player's next turn." is ambiguous. The frame of reference is not fixed in terms of the who and the when. For example: (thinking of players in rota order A, B, C ...)
During A's turn, A issues a force push on the BIG thing currently possessed by C. Think in terms of time first. does the forced change of possession come INSTANTLY, or does it come "after C's next turn. And who is the who; if the forced transfer is after C's turn, then is it to D (the active player after C' next turn) or is it to B (the active player whose turn is scheduled to come next in the turn order NOW. Not sure I explained that very well ... make sense?
(This is a general quote throughout section v.)

vi a 5 - typo - I think the first 'who' is spurious
vii a Portend - A minor niggle - you use Portent without defining it. I am pretty sure Portent is actually defined as the Proposal Number specified in the Portend command, but probably best spell it out. If it was a program the compiler would warn you that the variable is undeclared!

I think that's all I have on the proposal. Now to move on to the Thing.
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby super_dipsy » 14 Mar 2014, 17:44

My only comment on the Thing is that it says initial ownership goes to the person who most recently entered the game. I think you need to be clear whether an inactive player becoming active counts as entering the game, or whether you are only counting new players who have not previously been involved entering the game.
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Crunkus » 14 Mar 2014, 18:30

super_dipsy wrote:Finally reading it properly now.

Reading from III. c . iv. a. 5-9
5. If one or more of the following two conditions are met:
6.The Dark Lord of the Sith cast the responded to "NAY" vote.
7.If the Dark Lord of the Sith cast the responded to "NAY" vote or had cast a "NAY" vote prior to the successful use of this ability then a successful use of this ability changes the Jedi's points by adding an amount equal to the absolute value of the midi-chlorians possessed by the Dark Lord of the Sith minus the midi-chlorians of the Jedi who used this ability. This change in points cannot be less than -10 or more than 10. If it would be less than -10, it is -10 instead. If it would be more than 10, it is 10 instead.
8.If the Jedi's points increase by the successful use of this ability, than then (~10:25 13 Mar 2014)the Dark Lord of the Sith's points decrease by the same number of points.
9.If the Jedi's points decrease by the successful use of this ability, than then (~10:25 13 Mar 2014)the Dark Lord of the Sith's points increase by the same number of points.

You may have forgotten an indent. What are the conditions referred to in 5? And what is the result? Also, I am not sure you will know that successful use of this ability resulted in a points increase or decrease for the Jedi. It is not clear to me how it can have any effect on points. Or have I misunderstood? I can see how it affects the number of midi-chlorians you hold, but I assume points are the specific game-points totals. Or am I just hopelessly confused?


Good catch there on the indent, I need to look at that section again. Something is missing there. I will fix that an update the thread when I do. The change in points occurs as a result of what is, in this quoted section subsection 7 if the ability targets The Dark Lord of the Sith or the Dark Lord of the Sith votes NAY prior to this ability being used in thread. In addition to the midi-chlorian change, that can result in a point change as described in subsection 7. It depends on the relative midi-chlorian strengths of the Dark Lord of the Sith and the Jedi using this ability. Thematically this represents the significance of the intercession or involvement of the Dark Lord of the Sith in the NAY drive that the Jedi is thematically taking the first steps in opposing by "sensing". A less powerful Jedi stands to gain points if he manages to be the first to detect a disturbance that involves the Dark Lord of the Sith. A powerful Jedi actually has a disincentive to use this ability if the Dark Lord of the Sith is involved, and can lose points if that jedi is more positive than the Dark Lord of the Sith is negative. Any reference to points is game points, any reference to midi-chlorians is midi-chlorians. I'll be re-writing this section in a bit and posting the re-worded clause here for review.

super_dipsy wrote:and section v. following
Jedi Padawan Ability

I have a general point here. I think the line "A FORCE PUSH by a Jedi Padawan has the effect of changing the possessor of the Target Thing to the active player whose turn is scheduled to come next in the turn order after the Target player's next turn." is ambiguous. The frame of reference is not fixed in terms of the who and the when. For example: (thinking of players in rota order A, B, C ...)
During A's turn, A issues a force push on the BIG thing currently possessed by C. Think in terms of time first. does the forced change of possession come INSTANTLY, or does it come "after C's next turn. And who is the who; if the forced transfer is after C's turn, then is it to D (the active player after C' next turn) or is it to B (the active player whose turn is scheduled to come next in the turn order NOW. Not sure I explained that very well ... make sense?


Without a time reference, I'd assume it to happen instantly. Midi-chlorian and point changes as a result of this rule or its derivatives is scored at the end of the turn explicitly, but possession changes have not been explicitly stated, you're right in terms of timing. The intent was instantaneous. This way you can have interesting interaction between abilities and Things changing hands as a result of orders throughout the turn. "plays" if you will. I describe some in the examples. Besides the timing, is the possession change involved players also ambiguous in your view? I lifted the wording from I believe the wording of the Flow property of the Bookie's book. The target player is clear by the command content, the active player whose turn is scheduled to come next in the turn order after the target player seems straight forward. The timing just isn't explicit, correct?

I can add a clause early on similar to the midi-chlorian changes occurring EOT that makes explicit that possession changes referenced in this rule are considered to take effect immediately. Would this solve the ambiguity in your view?

super_dipsy wrote:(This is a general quote throughout section v.)

vi a 5 - typo - I think the first 'who' is spurious
vii a Portend - A minor niggle - you use Portent without defining it. I am pretty sure Portent is actually defined as the Proposal Number specified in the Portend command, but probably best spell it out. If it was a program the compiler would warn you that the variable is undeclared!

I think that's all I have on the proposal. Now to move on to the Thing.


I'll work on all of these and post when they're cleared up. I thank you for these "minor niggles" I think they can be very important and are also aesthetically desirable.

More later.
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Crunkus » 14 Mar 2014, 18:32

super_dipsy wrote:My only comment on the Thing is that it says initial ownership goes to the person who most recently entered the game. I think you need to be clear whether an inactive player becoming active counts as entering the game, or whether you are only counting new players who have not previously been involved entering the game.


Seems fair. Will do. I think in terms of the current rule set, inactive players are by their nature "players in the game" just in an inactive capacity. But there's absolutely no harm in making it explicit and it should avoid issues, and possibly get some people who are inactive to come back into the game a turn sooner.
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Crunkus » 14 Mar 2014, 18:42

Okay the conditions section of the point-relevant part of Force Disturbance Sensitivity has been reworked. I think this is a bit easier... (slightly formatted differently here)

IV.C.5: If one or more of the following two conditions are met then a game state known as Dark Lord of the Sith Involvement in the Force Disturbance is defined to have occurred with the use of this ability.
  • The Dark Lord of the Sith cast the responded to "NAY" vote.
  • The Dark Lord of the Sith cast the responded to "NAY" vote or had cast a "NAY" vote prior to the successful use of this ability.
IV.C.6: If a Dark Lord of the Sith Involvement in the Force Disturbance occured with the use of this ability, then a successful use of this ability changes the Jedi using the ability's points by adding an amount equal to the absolute value of the midi-chlorians possessed by the Dark Lord of the Sith minus the midi-chlorians of the Jedi who used this ability. This change in points cannot be less than -10 or more than 10. If it would be less than -10, it is -10 instead. If it would be more than 10, it is 10 instead.
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Crunkus » 14 Mar 2014, 18:47

New clause I.F:

All changes of the possession or the initial possession and creation of any Things referenced in this rule are considered to resolve immediately unless otherwise stated by this rule.
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Crunkus » 14 Mar 2014, 19:03

Force Domination activation command content definition fixed:

Any Sith able to use this ability who wishes to use it In order to activate this ability, a Sith able to use it (~12:58 14 Mar 2014)must type on its own line, in size 125 or greater, in all capital letters, and in the color black (defined as #000000 or no colour code), "FORCE DOMINATION: [Target Player]."
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Re: Nomic 5 - Proposal 308 - The Way of The Force/ASSL

Postby Crunkus » 14 Mar 2014, 19:10

portent is now defined as a game concept before it is used and later developed.

The successful use of the Portend ability creates a trackable game state known as a portent that references the player named as the target of this ability, and the proposal number targeted by this ability. Specific details of the functionality and tracking of portents are detailed in the clauses that follow. (~13:10 14 Mar 2014)
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