Warhammer AAR - Solo victory for Chaos

[Stanislaw]

Congrats to Bluecillin on the solo victory.

Feel free to post your thoughts on the variant and how the game went.

[Odd Creator]

First, thanks to Stanislaw for Game Managing this map, and to the players for the game

Then I'm glad to tell about the details of the map I noticed, and how I think it could be improved for a more perfectioned play...
I organized the changes I think could be possible in two different parallel plans: A and B.

IN GENERAL
It's a pretty good map for short games and so more likely to be played than the medium or large maps.
Its asimmetrical structure, anyway, is worsened by the small size as happens always for small maps.

The land of Norsca is totally wasted as none will ever need it to cross, to retreat in, nor to convoy to.
Northern Wastes has almost the same problem, anyway is more likely to be entered cause useful to outflank Erengrad.
Both them could be then merged in a single bigger new land, and/or Norsca could be made a SC (just of Chaos, see below why).

Naval warfare is limited by 1-1 struggles, but Tilea is in the middle and so can't face hostility of Bretonnia and The Greenskins at same time.

The Greenskins and The Forces of Chaos have some or all SCs attached to the map borders; that gives them a great advantage of non outflankability like Russia in Classic Diplomacy.

The time stated for Draws to be accepted not before 2528 is too late; a solo win has occurred about Spring 2526 and could have even been 1 seasons sooner.

Each country shares a frontier with one single free SC easy to be contested (e.g. Copher, Marienburg), and the other frontier with 2 such SCs, likely to be shared with armed armistice (e.g. Bilbali-Magritta, Erengrad-Kislev).
The exception is just the frontier between the Forces of Chaos and the Greenskins where free SCs are massed (Styratia, Khypiris, Barak-Varr, Karak Eight-peaks) and act like an unavoidable point of conflict among the two countries.
Too many SCs are there, so the final winner takes a great advantage on the too far countries, Bretonnia especially.

Styratia is the keypoint from where a power, most likely Tilea, can decide to help Chaos to break the impenetrable Greenskins front (and there is still only 50% chances of success).

TILEA
Tilea is too weak, at start and everytime during game, cause a too large and scattered front at every moment.
The control of the Southern Sea especially is too difficult, while is vital like North Sea in Classic Diplomacy for England.
Also the control of Forest of Loren is important, but rather impossible cause a keypoint attracting attacks from too many home SCs all around.
All those problems force Tilea to join alliances with minimum 2 neighbours, just to survive, and vanifies any chance for a solo win.
-Strategical weakspots-
.Southerns Sea, Forest of Loren, Tilea Sea (3: too manies!!)
-Possible solutions-
..A..2 fleet (Tobaro, Luccini) at start for having chances to fight for vital seas.
-or-
..B..To change border between Southern Sea and Black Gulf, to have the latter adiacent to Araby and then Khemri isolated from Southern Sea.

THE EMPIRE
The Empire is too dangerous at beginning, with those 3 armies, but this only causes more diplomatic troubles than true advantage.
In general, the lack of a fleet at start is not a benefit but only a potential threat for Tilea especially about a too early conflict for Forest of Loren.
And especially cause the boundaries with Marienburg, the lack of a fleet is a great problem in case of war with Bretonnia: the SC can be hold if previously occupied, but is actually impossible to conquer if Bretonnia occupied it the first or is contesting it!
-Possible solutions-
..A..1 fleet (Altdorf) at start for having real chances to fight for Marienburg.

FORCES OF CHAOS
Forces of Chaos are too brittle at start and too invulnerable later; they have home SCs on the border (not outflankable) like Russia in Classic Diplomacy, a great advantage.
With time they can mass so many armies in the wide 'earth-core' line (Northern Wastes - Kislev - Ostermark - Sylvania - Wissenland - Styratia), that gives an immense advantage on every country having needed to build fleet.
They pay anyway such and advantage with the problem of being easily blocked regardless of how many armies they can have massed.
They are also so brittle at start, with a sure war with the Greenskins cause Karak Eight-Peaks and a possible simultaneous aggression by The Empire just going forward after Erengrad occupation.
-Strategical weakspots-
.Karak Eight-Peaks (so easy to be taken at first move by Greenskins)
-Possible solutions-
..A..1 more SC in Norsca with a fleet to be stronger at first and also to have something to lose or defend with tactical difficulty and diplomatic challenge. That would also give a chanche to Forces of Chaos to fight even with the no longer so distant Bretonnia (for Marienburg) and Tilea (for Copher) since the first turns.

BRETONNIA
Bretonnia has a starting advantage on Marienburg SC cause able to siege it while The Empire cannot.
The fleet in Bordeleaux can occupy the vital Sea of Chaos without a stop, and the result is both a good defensive strategical power than an advantage against the Empire and Tilea.
Starting with only one unit, Couronne's army, able to move into Forest of Loren balances a lot the power.
More, by its position so isolated, for Bretonnia hardly can share any border with Forces of Chaos, with the result both will be almost surely potential allies against a common neighbour in the middle, more likely The Empire.
-Strategical weakspots-
.Sea of Chaos, Massif Orcal (2 would be too manies, but the second is so easy to be defended, the first is hardly entered by Tilean fleet already engaged for Southern Sea)
-Possible solutions-
..A..2 fleet (Quenelles, Bordeleaux) at start for having a less starting advantage on Massif Orcal but a chance to balance the position in middle seas (especially cause in Plan A also Tilea starts with 2 fleet and Forces of Chaos have a fleet and SC in Norsca).

THE GREENSKINS
The Greenskins are definitively the strongest of all powers by starting units and strategical keypoints.
Like Russia in Classic Diplomacy they have some SCs on the map border so blocking any attempt to outflank them, a great advantage.
Khemri strategic keypoint, homecenter able to build at any time new fleet, is too threatening Southern Sea, the vital spot of Tilea; this is a great problem like the one in Classic Diplomacy finally leading authors to create the Helgoland Bay zone so parting the originary North Sea...
The result of this disproportion of strategic force leads Tilea to surely want siding with Forces of Chaos to engage The Greenskins, and hardly accept peace with the latters cause at any moment even the only one Greenskins' fleet could enter Southern Sea and paralyze the entire Tilea.
-Strategical weakspots-
.Dragonback Mountains (but none can enter it by 1 move, and just a convoyed army would be the max threat)
-Possible solutions-
..A..No changes, cause changes for other countries already bring more balance.
..B..To change border between Southern Sea and Black Gulf, to have the latter adiacent to Araby and then Khemri isolated from Southern Sea.

ABOUT PLAN 'A'
It just can balance better the game in my opinion by simply changing some starting unit, plus the great change in Norsca. Just a resume of what it implies:
-Tilea: 2 fleet (Tobaro, Luccini) at start.
-The Empire: 1 fleet (Altdorf) at start.
-Forces of Chaos: 1 more SC in Norsca with a fleet at start..
-Bretonnia: 2 fleet (Quenelles, Bordeleaux) at start.
-Greenskins: no changes.
The starting situation changes a lot:
-Every neighbour of the Forest of Discord (ehm Loren lol) has only 1 army to enter or bounce in it.
-Tilea is more powerful especially in defense of Southern Sea, versus the Greenskins and Bretonnia, so on sea but not on land. It can take the sea by entering it from Luccini by Tobaro' support, and later occupy Magritta anyway with support or without, just to try and take Copher.
-The Empire has a concrete need to be at war either with Chaos or Bretonnia, but can also easily get the help of one of them against the other.
-The Forces of Chaos are still brittle but are not automatically doomed if attacked by The Empire and the Greenskins at same time, cause they would save northern strongholds (hoping at least Bretonnia would be friendly). They are less weak at start, but also more brittle later, and this can balance better all the game. They become this way the most difficult power of manage, like Russia in Classic Diplomacy.
-Bretonnia has not enough armies to launch an immediate and too advantaged attack on The Empire, and could even ally with against Chaos to seize Norsca.
-The Greenskins can no longer rely on longly bounce Tilea in the Southern Sea, but can always sneak into Araby to reach Copher, or occupy the important keypoint of Black Gulf with real little chance of Tilea wasting a move there. In the long run, the greater number of Tileans fleet can be surpassed with new builds, but in the meanwhile Tilea itself won't see as a great danger the Greenskins who will be able then to concentrate on the east. More, Styratia's boosting position can be more likely to be of the Greenskins with their fleet rather than of Tilea by their (only) army from Remas...

The massed SC on the frontier between Forces of Chaos and the Greenskins are too manies; one must be eliminated, in order to let the two powers more free to agree peace if they want, and to eliminate a further advantage against the other too far 3 countries.
So I suggest just Karak Eight-peaks to become a non SC zone; if the two neighbours will want to fight for it they will be able anyway.
The 'odd' SC remains the central keypoint of Styratia fairly reachable by anyone, with these slightly different chances:
-The Greenskins by 1-2 units, especially by fleet from Black Gulf supported by already occupied Barak-Varr.
-Tilea by 1-2 units, more likely by the army alone from Lagoon of Tears, but can combine a joint attack with fleet exploiting Forest of Loren or Black Gulf.
-The Forces of Chaos by one army, rather easily from Khypiris.
-The Empire by one army rather easily from Wissenland (even if merged with Sylvania, see below).
-Bretonnia by one army from Forest of Loren, with great difficulty as yet is difficult to enter there, so even more to then occupy the SC with no help.

An additional idea I can call A+ is to also change some frontiers cause The Empire has too much void room on the east that can be exploited just by an immense army to crush it from there.
Also I see the need for the newly too brittle Forces of Chaos to have a link between Norsca and Zharr Naggrund to give the first defensive support just in case.
So these zones should be merged together:
-Norsca and Northern Waste, becoming Norsca (SC).
-Kislev and Ostermark, becoming ..?.. (SC)
-Sylvania and Wissenland, becoming ..?..

ABOUT PLAN 'B'
It is based essentially in changing some frontiers and SC of the map, even if I think A+ is the definitive better balanced solution.
Like in plan 'A' it's capital Karak Eight-peaks to become a non SC zone.
More, it's needed a change of border between Southern Sea and Black Gulf, to have the latter adjacent to Araby and then Khemri isolated from Southern Sea.
Then these zones should be merged together:
-Norsca and Northern Waste, becoming Norsca (SC).
-Kislev and Ostermark, becoming ..?.. (SC)
-Sylvania and Wissenland, becoming ..?..

ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC GAME
As Tilea's player I can say I did not mismoves, so not wasting my moves, until the very last ones. Leaving the Southern Sea meant I could no longer support in defense my army in Khemri and Forces of Chaos could have won the solo anyway, just by taking to me Khemri, not even needing to conquer Altdorf the last Empire's SC by that huge battle of 7 sieging units involved.
Oddly Chaos choose even to attack me on all the line, for reasons that are still a mistery to me (he could not have discovered my secret plan to colonize with Skaven rats just Norsca, could he? LOL)
My choice not to attack Bretonnia was indeed caused by the diplomatic deals of peace previously made, and so I had to face the idea of being a treacherous one if attacking that power after its long and difficult struggle with The Empire.
I don't count as mismoves my moves in support of Bretonnia then, cause obviously coherent with previous deals of peace.
I can say that when the Greenskins had fallen I just offered Bretonnia the choice between going on with peace with me or facing a challenging war, and I rightly respected its choice for peace.
So Bretonnia and The Empire had a chance to stop their war and face the new growing powers of Chaos and me, indeed, but all dependend on the choice of Tilea in might and of Bretonnia when given the power to choice by me.
Despite all that, Forces of Chaos had yet the power to crush my front in Styratia, if they had wanted, and only a total alliance of Tilea and Empire could have tried to block them, but being total vulnerable by Bretonnia in the natural position of helping Chaos even if not willing so.

But better to start telling from the beginning!
Since I realized my country was the weakest, with both Forest of Loren and Southern Sea being my worse weakspots, I had no choice but to seek help from all the neighbours I could and plan a war of defence rather than expansion against my so strategically advantaged neighbour: the Greenskins.
I saw it would have been a hard war, even while the Forces of Chaos were heavily challenging the Greenskins from east, just because the so great keypoint of Khemri was able to stop me from keeping Copher for so long.
Later, again that fleet reached to stop me from entering Black Gulf and rush to defend Styratia or just attack Khemri from another side more.
So I eventually won only cause I used 3 units (to challenge 1!!!) plus the fact Forces of Chaos engaged all Greenskin units east of Khemri so no defensive support ever came there.
I can say that a borderline division than leads 1 unit to engage 3 is a terrible advantage, and it's confirmed cause I did no mistakes, advancing by the prudent and succesful way instead trying lucky moves at hazard.
Forces of Chaos will also confirm that they needed, in the most crucial of phases (Spring-Fall 2523), about 4 armies plus 1 mine to have 50% chance of victory over 3 Greenskin armies; just in Spring that 50% had been in favour of the Greenskins and their front didn't crack despite 3 armies versus 5!
The decisive break of the front was due to a 50% chance of success, with my Styratia army helping Chaos to break Barak-Varr, and had even failed at first attempt!
In the meanwhile the Empire in Forest of Loren and Nuln often looked like ready to go and attack my Styratia, which I was unable to support with any other unit, so tension was to the max and only the unsure break of Barak-Varr (plus of course the alliance with Chaos) stabilized my boundary.
A stabilization that was brittle anyway, cause I could even have not defended from a potential attack of Chaos itself, just in my worst eternal weakspot that was Styratia.
I think the ruin of the Greenskins was just the consequence of their too great strategic advantage: they could have at every moment crippled my back with 1 only fleet, and I wonder what could have done with 2 or more if had grown stronger!

Meanwhile, the defence of my home SC and especially Styratia was getting a nightmare with Empire often entering Forest of Loren (that I call Forest of Discord now LOL) and caused many of -my- units to stay and try defending homecenters...
Oddly, the Empire moves there were threating me more than its Bretonnian opponent!
That resulted undoubtfully in much advantage for the Greenskins as I was not free to build as many fleet as possible to rule the seas quicker...
I even was not able to attack Forest of Loren by two of my armies many times, just cause the retreating army there could have gone in retaliation into one of my SCs!
Only later I realized Empire was forced to enter all times Forest of Loren to prevent any enemy unit from there to cut Altdorf's support to Marienburg, as in facts happened, at last 3:) bwahahaha
So I think the ruin of the Empire has been just the lack of a fleet able to outflank Marienburg and/or give an uncuttable support to it.

Definitively, I have to say Tilea is the most difficult and weak power of all. I needed 2 peaceful neighbours (Bretonnia by deal, The Empire cause actually did not attack me even if being able to do) and one active "far ally" (Chaos), all to just survive!!!
Having needed so many friendly countries finally led me to have no lands where to expand, and to hope in a Draw as my max ambition. But the clearly impossible defence of Styratia in case of attack of Chaos vanified even that last ambition!
More, I could never have had the power to attack Forces of Chaos in the contested lands of former Greenskins', cause the shape of boundaries letting the Chaos to mass troops with no weakspots at all.

It has been a hard diplomatic struggle to get more powerful countries to my side, and that made me and The Empire strangely the most contrasting powers, in a diplomatic struggle.
I believed I guessed he wanted me and Bretonnia to clash, so to attack the latter in the back, or to attack Chaos in the back while unavoidably engaged by Greenskins; so it has been my hardest work, to isolate the Emperor hehehe 3:) ...but at the price of solid peace with Bretonnia and no longer hope to expand there :O hahaha
The final result of our diplomatic war was a success of my Tilea wanting the destruction of the Greenskins in spite of The Empire's project wanting Bretonnia destroyed, and this happened in my opinion just because the Greenskins were too advantaged at start and then considered more dangerous by me than Bretonnia...

At last, I can say it has been for me a breathtaking game until the last!
As was used to say that Grand Rat... ehm Grandpa,
"Instead rushing into battles, keep the lands.
Better to survive longer and enjoy the benefits!"

Ehm, and about just the word "Telia" I wrote on every diplomatic message...
It wasn't my fault, it was the -evil- GM to keep that name written on every map post, and I just unawarely copied it from there!
How could I imagine that HUMANS in this region I infest do actually say "Tilea"??? =D
Bwahahahahaahahahah <Skaven laughing>

[bluecuillin]

whow, after reading the post from Odd Creator I am feeling the pressure to add something of value to the AAR thread.

so to keep it short

firstly thanks to Stanislaw for GMing this the variant and to everyone for playing and enjoyable game - and how I wanted that Empire Build at the end to have gone through - resurrection - it would have been a tale to tell across the known lands.

so in short I think the game is a fun if straightforward one that will suit those who want a quick game with simple diplomatic options. You can't win without a strong ally and I was lucky to have Talia who was an impressive friend right through to the end.

The board does need some tweaks - odd Creator has gone through this in depth so I won't add much other than to say I felt Chaos was overly strong and the lack of fleets made it strangely unbalanced. Perhaps build anywhere would be an interesting option? Also it could be interesting to add more sea spaces perhaps allowing units easier access from one side to the other of the board.

Another option would be to make it more Warhammery by adding some fantasy elements. Not sure about this but for a fantasy game based variant it lacked a sense of something fantastical more like diplomacy on a different map. magic / dragons / undead?

There were a couple of technical issues with the map posts - it didn't work on my phone as the scroll bars didn't enable thus I could only see a bit of the map. This is odd because all the other maps I play on work so must be something aboyut the way it was uploaded in this variant. Also as the game progressed the layers of map became unreadable so I couldn't read the country names and in one case entered the wrong order because of this. Both minor issues but worth commenting on.

Anyway thanks everyone and I look forward to the next time we cross diplomatic swords.

[McGiles]

Thanks to Stanislaw for GM-ing, and congrats to bluecuillin for winning!

First my recap of the action: (as the Greenskins)

I started out trying to make a deal with Chaos. The initial plan was to ally with Chaos, evenly distribute the SC's between us and we'd go our separate paths, me into Tilea and Chaos into the Empire. However the deal we reached was that Chaos takes Karak, but has to wait a turn to take it so as to not threaten me while I was exposed. However I heard warnings of double crossings so I quickly supported myself into Karak. That explains Chaos' Public Press of the "Green skins lie, green skins cheat..." However, as our deal was, he did attempt a move into Karak in spring (against our deal), so I was not the only one to renege.

After that the pivotal move that ultimately cost me the game was Chaos' move Kislev to Gorgoth in the following fall, cutting my retreat. I was thereafter surrounded and eventually whittled away at until I was eliminated (albeit it took a lot longer than I anticipated, see Odd Creator's AAR for more details on that).

I did see the HUGE potential for Chaos to solo after that, so I sent at least a couple messages to both Empire and Tilea to attack Chaos or stop attacking me (respectively) so we could stop him, but neither happened and Chaos soloed as I feared.

I had a lot of fun despite me being the only technical elimination (although Empire might as well have been).

My views of the map in general: (Biased because I only played Greenskins)

I would compare the Greenskins to Turkey in original Diplomacy. Turkey has great defensive positioning on the board, as do Greenskins as it is difficult to get units in to invade. However, like Turkey, it is just as difficult to get any expansion going. I was able to only gain 1 SC the whole game before I was immediately cut off by Chaos and Tilea. If the Greenskins want to ally with Chaos, then there's a very narrow (one territory wide) bottleneck for all the armies to try and get through in order to get out, which leads nowhere except into Tilea. Therefore the Greenskins have to ally with either Tilea or Chaos, however since they do not border each other it is much more likely that they would ally and attack me (as what happened this game). I would agree with all points raised about Greenskins being defensively powerful, but offensively they are the worst on the board.

Because of that I would say that Chaos has the most advantage of any power. No home SC is reachable by fleet, so no matter how powerful Tilea's, Bretonnia's, or even Greenskin's naval power is, Chaos will be unaffected. Only 4 of Chaos' 13 final SC's were even bordering water, and 3 of those were only accessible by the same space. So with western powers having to worry about flanks from the water, Chaos is great just amassing armies and slowly conquering wherever he pleases. So my theory of the only way Chaos could lose (besides incompetency), is that the Empire and Greenskins have to focus east while Tilea and Bretonnia are satisfied just fighting amongst themselves until Chaos is no longer a threat.

Karak is easily the most valuable space on the board. Not only is it an SC but it borders 6 other SC's (4 of them home centers for two different powers). Because of that, whomever controls Karak between Chaos and Greenskins will control the fate of both. The second most valuable space is the Forest of Loren, and that's simply because it in of itself is not an SC. If it was it would surpass Karak as it borders 6 home SC's as well as a neutral one. I still think it is less valuable than Karak because it could be easily DMZ'd, with the two neighbors ganging up on the power that breaks the DMZ.

A good Diplomacy map tends to work on the triangle theory, where any power can easily attack (at least) two other powers, and those two powers can also easily attack each other. That's what makes the original Diplomacy work so well. Not only are there clear triangles (western between E/F/G and eastern between T/R/A), but all powers are involved in at least two triangles (except for Italy in my opinion). That's what makes the original so popular, so that if you're caught as the odd man out of your triangle, you might be able to use your second triangle to help you out. If there's an E/F alliance, Germany can ask for Russia to attack England (the northern triangle).

There are no real triangles in this Warhammer map, everyone borders two powers, but it is too much like a ring instead of triangles. Because Karak is so valuable, Greenskins and Chaos would probably fight 9 times out of 10, meaning that Tilea and Empire have to choose whether to ally with Greenskins or Chaos (and either attack them or ignore them depending on position). Unfortunately for me this game both decided on pro-Chaos with Empire ignoring and Tilea attacking. But their choices will define Bretonnia (who will attack the power ignoring the G/C war), this time that meant fighting Empire. If both Empire and Tilea decided to fight Chaos/Greenskins, Bretonnia would have had a field day.

To summarize, I feel that the Greenskins and Chaos relationship controls the game. Karak is too valuable, so that relationship will be war most of the time. Other powers will decide who wins that war, with the winner having great footing going into the endgame. However, because I feel Chaos is the more advantageous of the two, Chaos will likely win most games.

I do think that with more work, this map could have great potential.

Naturally, my thoughts on the game should be taken with a grain of salt as my game was defined by my war against Chaos with Tilea providing support against my rear.

[Odd Creator]

Hi Mc, aka the Greenskins's leader!

I agree a lot of what you wrote, while I can add some detail however.
As Tilea (not Telia, it's Tilea LOL) I reached to get the alliance of Chaos just cause both me and him noticed a great weakspot in his starting position: the vulnerability to a immediate attack of you and the Empire, while Bretonnia could have been "bribed" with Marienburg, to be attacking me and letting the Empire in peace. So my strategy essentially was based on despair... lol and I affected Chaos too, even if we could not imagine what had to happen of Marienburg, that is the impossible: The Empire taking it (by just diplomacy?) instead Bretonnia!!!
I'm so curious to listen the Emperor's point of view, cause it has been his choice to launch against Bretonnia rather than against Chaos that, I think, decided all the doom of the game.

I can add also that I could not, after a war of years, spare your Khemri: that was my only share in the loot! lol Just Chaos could have decided to spare your Numas for example, but nothing about that was in my power. At that moment, I think also for The Empire was too late to attack Chaos, even for resisting it, as the too fragmented front between them was indeed an advantage only for the mass of armies to have room to siege Empire SC's...

So I'm still convinced that to better balance things it's capital to make Karak a non-SC and to make Norsca the 4th Chaos' SC with a fleet. Should make things more similar to the Triangle Theory?

[Odd Creator]

Hi Blue, aka the Chaotic!

At last you brought the Chaos on the Old World and now in AAR it's time to see and analyse just why haha
I have to say, despite few would agree, that Chaos starting position is not good at all; it has been the course of the game if Empire decided to spare your frontier in Kislev at crucial moment, and to expand in the (I think) almost impossible to defend Marienburg so blocking self into that difficult war with Bretonnia; our mutual plan about Styratia cracking the Greenskins' front also was so risky: they had 50% chance anyway to resist forever, and meanwhile Styratia was vulnerable to possible attacks of Empire itself so often lurking in Forest of Discord.
So I'm the first to revaluate the lesser strenght of Chaos and the bigger advantage of Greenskins, the latter simply having been too spread on front to concentrate with a fleet in Black Gulf to counterattack you.

whow, after reading the post from Odd Creator I am feeling the pressure to add something of value to the AAR thread.
Another option would be to make it more Warhammer by adding some fantasy elements. Not sure about this but for a fantasy game based variant it lacked a sense of something fantastical more like diplomacy on a different map. magic / dragons / undead?

It's an interesting idea... hhmm... but how to realize it without complicating too much the game? Already I've heard about some special rules about air strategy somewhere in the forum (that could fit with the idea of air fantasy units at least...)

P.S. hey, you too with Talia! LOL it's Tilea! =))

[ErikVerhoeve]

Hai, first of all: I enjoyed the game. Thanks, Stanislaw, for DM'ing it!

What happened? Well, I had made an alliance with Chaos (quite odd for the Empire, if you come to think of it). I intended to honour that alliance, so my plan was to attack Bretonnia, and then Tilea. I took Marienburg early, much earlier than I expected. But it stopped there. The forest of Loren was a major nuisance, in many ways (it should be fixed, but later more on that). I hoped, no expected, infighting between Bretonnia and Tilea. But unfortunately, that didn't happen. That entirely stopped my campaign. I knew the northern front was weak; Chaos proved it to be true. Him attacking me was the end of it. I could not prevent his wall of armies marching in. I was saved by the bell, although it feels I am kicked out of the game

As for improvements: I think only two are really necessary. First, the forest of Loren should be divided in the forest of Loren (east, neutral) and Carcasonne (west, neutral). Second, a neutral province (World Spine Mountains?) should be made north to K8P, so that K8P becomes smaller and Chaos has no immediate entry to the Border lands. The game was intended as a fairly easy quick game where everyone has two immediate neighbours and a third one in the Border lands.

Thanks, by the way for all you suggestions. They are really helpfull. I am thinking about a remake of this map. It would become much greater, each power starting with 5 or so units. Maybe adding less powers but introducing Chaos cultists. Your suggestions will surely be worth their weight in gold during making such a map!

I had fun with this game: thank you all for that!

[Stanislaw]

All very interesting thoughts, the variant certainly needs them.

As for my thoughts, I think it would definitely help if Chaos was shifted a bit more northward. Make Norsca a home SC starting with a fleet and take away Vorag. In that case the Empire would also start with a fleet. I think that would take some pressure of the guaranteed war for Karak, but on the other hand could empower the Greenskins too much. I also might think about reworking the forest of loren, maybe extend some other spaces to make it smaller.

[Odd Creator]

Hi Erik!

First, thanks for the map, it's really a quick and nice game

I agree the idea of halving Forest of Discord ehm Loren hehe at last, after all it causes that impossible warfare at 3 to the neighbours.
I'm still of the opinion Karak eighty peaks is a surplus SC and should be made a non SC center, cause the Greenskins have already their standart 1 sure SC (Barak-varr) + 1 potential fought SC (Copher), and so Chaos too has already the same structure with a little advantage too (Kislev sure, Khypiris sure). the base structure I saw just to remind it is 1 sure SC + 1 contested, for everyone, as for other 3 powers is almost perfect:
Bretonnia: Bilbali sure, Marienburg contested
Empire: Erengrad sure, Marienburg contested
Tilea: Magritta sure, Copher contested

I don't mention Styratia as a bonus for Tilea cause I can assure by my experience it was a nightmare to take and later defend it. That is surely the perfect "odd" SC in the middle of the map where everybody can access with 2 moves, so a potential bonus for all and a prize for the quickest/luckiest. It's also a prob for Bretonnia to reach it in case forest of Loren would be split, let's remind it, it's an important detail for balance... :O

So in my opinion Karak eighty peaks as SC is only: a boost bonus for those 2 powers only; a seed of total discord among them; an advantage for the winner only to triumph at last on every other player! :O

Hey we need just to hear also Bretonnia now, where he is?

[Stanislaw]

Thanks, Stanislaw, for DM'ing it!

What is this, dungeons and dragons? I actually happen to do a lot more DMing than GMing.

So seems like just about everyone is in agreement about the forests of Lothern and Karak Eight Peaks, those spaces are definitely the two big ones that need to change. I'm wondering though what you guys think about changing chaos' third SC from Vorag to Norsca. Would probably shift the main area of fighting further north.

@Erik: if you wanted to make the variant bigger, I'd advise extending the map to more of the warhammer world. Add Uthluan, Narrgaroth, the chaos wastes, maybe the Southlands as well.

Also just out of curiosity, how many of you actually play warhammer? I suspect Odd Creator is a dirty skaven player since he constantly referenced them in his orders (I can't stand skaven Odd ). I happen to be a big Warriors of Chaos fan so I was rooting for chaos behind the scenes.