Rules

Played with a different set of Wing rules. GM: Pedros; Winner: Diadem (Turkey)

Re: Rules

Postby Zadaron » 17 Oct 2013, 05:11

Thorondor. wrote:Is this correct:

Wings can only stay in the base they are build in and if you move them they can only stay in SC's, wich will become the new homebase. But if they dislodge an army from a SC with support they have to return and the SC will not be conquered. Wings cant stay in SC's not conquered by you even if they move there? so if you move a wing to a neutral SC in spring it will return, and in fall it will stay in the SC?


I think what's confusing you is that wings have one order called "attack" and a different order called "move".

"Attack" has a range of 2 and can be used to break support or prevent an enemy from moving into an area. A wing that "attacks" stays in the same area it was in.

"Move" has a range of 1. it's exactly like when an army moves except that the wing moves with a strength of 0. It can move into any area this way, non-SC areas and even neutral or enemy SCs. It can capture SCs in the same way as armies.



Pedros wrote:I've checked back to the original rules discussion Zadaron, and I have to admit that's what I wrote there as well as being the strict interpretation of the rules. So that's how it is.

However, I'll probably argue after this game for a revision there. It seems to me that if two British Wings attack an unsupported army in Brest (one attacking, one supporting) then it's 2v1 and the army should be dislodged. They wouldn't take control of the centre because they can't occupy it; but they should surely be able to drive out an enemy unit?

However, that's a discussion for another place and, I'd say, after the game when we've had a longer chance to assess their relative strength.


Just to clarify, can a wing's "attack" be supported? (To prevent an enemy with support from moving into an area)
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Re: Rules

Postby ThorondorNL » 17 Oct 2013, 07:34

Many thanks Zadaron, that's clear! Now I know where to use wings are for.
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Re: Rules

Postby Zadaron » 17 Oct 2013, 07:43

Thorondor. wrote:Many thanks Zadaron, that's clear! Now I know where to use wings are for.


No problem!
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Re: Rules

Postby Pedros » 17 Oct 2013, 11:00

Thorondor. and Zadaron first (I don't even understand Diadem's question yet!!)

Zadaron's right about the move and attack orders. The Wing can't fly if the order is to move the whole outfit (1 space, zero strength) and it can move 1 regardless of SC. The attack is when the base stays in place (zero strength) and the Wing flies off to hurt somebody! It then returns home (if home is still there to return to.)

And yes, Wing attacks can be supported either by another Wing or a terrestrial unit.
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Re: Rules

Postby Pedros » 17 Oct 2013, 11:07

Now Diadem!

They can't dislodge a unit, but they can prevent a unit from entering a space? Presumably they can then also prevent a dislodgement by beleaugered garrison?

This is odd - a beleagured garrison is a defensive situation. Can you give an example of what you have in mind?

Image power A uses unit a to support unit b. Power B uses a wing to attack a to cut its support. Power C also uses a wing to attack a to cut its support. Am I correct in understanding that the two wings cancel eachother, regardless of other support involved? So that the support of a to b would in fact be valid.

For this kind of thing I need to imagine a set of actual orders. Do I have it right that this is the situation? (Based on Regular, because we're all familiar with it):-

A (England): F ECH supports A Brest
B (France): W Paris attacks ECH via Brest
C (Germany): W Holland attacks ECG via NTH

Yes, the two wings don't exactly cancel; they have to fight each other over ECH so their attack doesn't get through. A's support of Brest would stand.

Also if wing A flies through province X to Y, and in each of those an enemy wing is active, does the wing in Y get cancelled? Or does A not act in Y because it is intercepted in X? Beware that this could lead to paradoxes.

A does not reach Y. I doubt it could lead to paradoxes (be glad if you could supply an example) but if it did the default paradox rule would apply - the units involved would become ordered to hold. But as I say, I don't see it. (The enemy Wings would also be intercepted)
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Re: Rules

Postby Diadem » 17 Oct 2013, 14:38

Typing out examples on a mobile is annoying, since I can't see the map, and while I know the map it's still hard to visualize everything in your head and be sure you make no mistakes.

But, let's see. Normal map:

English W Bel Attack Mar via Bur
Italian W Pie attack Gas via Mar
French W Spa attack Bur via Gas

Which attack happens?

The 'paradox means everybody holds' rule is tricky too. Does that include units in Bur and Mar, or are those not considered to be part of the paradox?

Another question: Is an invalid support considered a hold? If I order W Mun S A Gas via Bur, but A Gas orders A Gas - Spa, does the wing still intercept enemy wings in Bur or Gas?
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Re: Rules

Postby Pedros » 17 Oct 2013, 17:08

Diadem wrote:Typing out examples on a mobile is annoying, since I can't see the map, and while I know the map it's still hard to visualize everything in your head and be sure you make no mistakes.

But, let's see. Normal map:

English W Bel Attack Mar via Bur
Italian W Pie attack Gas via Mar
French W Spa attack Bur via Gas

Which attack happens?

The 'paradox means everybody holds' rule is tricky too. Does that include units in Bur and Mar, or are those not considered to be part of the paradox?

The easy part first. If it were a paradox it wouldn't include Burgundy and Marseilles because those orders don't include them (the orders would be valid even if there were no units there!)

But no paradox. The essence of a paradox is that you get a different outcome depending where you start. Tackle this one in order. England is intercepted in Burgundy so it doesn't reach Marseilles, granted. But then the other two intercept each other in Gascony. So everything is intercepted. And the same whichever order you tackle them in. Now I grant that it may be possible (I'm not going to spend time trying to invent it!) to produce a huge set of orders which actually produce a paradox. (Not saying it is, just that if you wish to spend long enough over it I can't say it's impossible!) If they do, then every Wing involved in the paradox would have its order changed to Hold.
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Re: Rules

Postby Pedros » 17 Oct 2013, 17:13

Diadem wrote:Another question: Is an invalid support considered a hold? If I order W Mun S A Gas via Bur, but A Gas orders A Gas - Spa, does the wing still intercept enemy wings in Bur or Gas?

Now that is a good question! If you argue from "Real Life" then the Wing would set out on its mission even though it didn't find an army to support. However, I don't like arguments like that from "Real Life" - they often lead to bad Dip variants. A support order for an army or fleet which doesn't correspond would be considered a Hold, so I don't see why Wings should be any different. I'll add it to the rules.
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Re: Rules

Postby Diadem » 17 Oct 2013, 23:30

Pedros wrote:The easy part first. If it were a paradox it wouldn't include Burgundy and Marseilles because those orders don't include them (the orders would be valid even if there were no units there!)

So units that are at the location where the paradox happens are not necessarily part of the paradox. I'm not sure you can make a rigorous rule that can always be followed here. I haven't managed to construct one yet, but I kind of fear that there is the possibility of a meta-paradox here, where the paradox resolution rule itself creates a paradox - which would be pretty bad.

Pedros wrote:But no paradox. The essence of a paradox is that you get a different outcome depending where you start. Tackle this one in order. England is intercepted in Burgundy so it doesn't reach Marseilles, granted. But then the other two intercept each other in Gascony. So everything is intercepted.

No, you are wrong. This absolutely is a paradox.

If the attack from the Wing in Bel is not intercepted, then the attack from the Italian wing from Piedmont is intercepted in Marseilles, meaning the Italian wing never acts in Gascony. This means that the French wing from Spain is not intercepted in Gascony and thus acts in Burgundy, which means that the English wing from Bel never managed to get past Burgundy, a contradiction.

Starting from the other direction, if the English wing in Bel never gets past Burgundy, than the Italian wing from Piedmont successfully gets past Marseilles and thus disrupts the French wing from Spain in Gascony, meaning that this french Wing never arrives in Burgundy to disrupt the English wing there, meaning that the English wing does get past Burgundy, a contradiction.

This is not a very far-fetched paradox either. It requires just three wings, with pretty common orders. I could easily see this happening.


You haven't answered my question about disrupting fleets yet btw. If wings can't cause a dislodge, does that mean they can't cause convoys to fail? Imho wings not being able to cause a dislodge is a really bad rule, since it makes no sense.
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Re: Rules

Postby Diadem » 17 Oct 2013, 23:40

I was rereading the wing rules just now while writing the previous post, and I just realized something else:

Support orders also have a range of 1 or 2 spaces in any direction (and the route taken must similarly be specified) including over water, and provide support with a strength of 1 for a ground attack by an army or fleet or for a an army, a fleet, or another Wing which is not itself moving (ie hold, support or convoy). Support can be provided to its own base square.

Two things
1) As written there Wings can not support attacks by other wings. Is that really the intention?
2) A wing can support another wing to hold if the wing is doing a "hold, support or convoy". Why can't I defend wings that are doing an attack? And why can I support wings that are convoying to hold?

Also:
Pedros wrote:
Diadem wrote:They can't dislodge a unit, but they can prevent a unit from entering a space? Presumably they can then also prevent a dislodgement by beleaugered garrison?

This is odd - a beleagured garrison is a defensive situation. Can you give an example of what you have in mind?
Well imagine:
German A Mun H
Russian A Sil - Mun
Russian A Boh S A Sil - Mun
French W Gas Attack Mun via Bur
French A Bur S W Gas Attack Mun.

Does this now count as a beleaguered garrison, or do the Russians wing?

Or a simpler example:
English W Bel Attack Bel
German A Hol - Bel

What happens?

ALSO (man, I keep thinking up new problems). The rules say a wing can support its own base. But what does this matter? Change the above example
English W Bel Support Bel
German A Hol - Bel.
The attack on Bel should cut the support given by the unit in Bel, so the Wing's support is cut. And then the unsupported Wing has strength 0 and is thus dislodged and destroyed automatically, just as if it had given no support. A wing self-supporting does exactly nothing.
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