Draw Proposal # 4

(Played as Game A of 2) GM: Pedros. Result: DIAS (AardvarkArmy - Winterfell; GhostEcho - Aiel; Netr0 - Borderlands; attitudes - Midlands; drrnwrstlr - D'Hara)

Draw Proposal # 4

Postby AardvarkArmy » 29 Sep 2013, 22:05

Winterfell proposes an immediate DIAS

Ok, let me be clear - I do NOT want this draw to be approved. I think it is silly, bizarre and shameful that any among us are even contemplating that a 5-way draw in a 6-player game is an acceptable outcome.

But in all of my years playing diplomacy - forum games, website games and face-to-face - I have never experienced such an extreme display of risk aversion as we have seen in this game. There are ALWAYS smaller powers willing to work cooperatively with larger powers for a time in order to better their own lot; sure, sure, sure... being in any way helpful to the larger power increases the risk that the larger power could solo, but the gamble is always A) a hope by the smaller power that they can gain more from the deal and "close the gap" at least somewhat, and B) that there is time to lock down an ALA later. Risk vs reward. The simple calculus of competition driven by a refusal to lie down and accept an ending without a best effort.

I have never experienced a game like this in all my life, where every single player either A) refuses to even consider methods for "collaborating with the enemy" while seeking avenues for their own betterment, or B) places ridiculously high terms on collaboration (e.g., no gains at all permitted or even roll-backs demanded of the larger player). While I do wish to find a willing partner to continue the battles, I don't think it is acceptable for me to lie down and stop being competitive any more than it is for any of you. In any partnership, I must be allowed to gain ground somewhere; it is up to you to come up with a plan or amend a plan that I propose which you can reasonably believe is going to benefit you more. Put differently - as I have said to some of you privately, I don't believe in giving "gifts" of centers - I think every player must work and fight for what they gain, but I am more than happy to collaborate, support, assist, convoy, facilitate to help an ally to gain.

I am 8 centers from solo. If I took half the centers from two other players, I still wouldn't be there. 5 of 6 nations are still very much alive. It is, simply, absurdly premature for an ALA lock-down.

But, hey, if that's what y'all want, I'm not going to oppose it any longer. I feel like I accomplished a few things in this game - I am the only one to have succeeded in eliminating another player. I'm the only one who has achieved an impenetrable defense of homeland such that I don't need to keep any units on any of my home centers; I have mastered control of 3/5 of the bridges and nearly half the seas. I can look at this map and take at least some small bits of pride in where I am.

Can each of you? If y'all are really satisfied with the current map; if you really think it is a fabulous accomplishment to share a 5-way draw from 6 starting players, then go ahead and accept this draw. I have lost all enjoyment of the game as long as that attitude persists, so better for it to just be over. But if any of you is haunted, as I am, by the sense that competitiveness and boldness left this game waaaaay too early, then I will happily entertain discussions to work together against your neighbors.
SOLOS
ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby attitudes » 29 Sep 2013, 22:58

AardvarkArmy wrote:I feel like I accomplished a few things in this game - I am the only one to have succeeded in eliminating another player. I'm the only one who has achieved an impenetrable defense of homeland such that I don't need to keep any units on any of my home centers; I have mastered control of 3/5 of the bridges and nearly half the seas.

You say this and then also wonder why none of the other players want to work with you. You own over half the map. The remaining four share less than half the map. You are, in a way, the victim of your own success.

What percentage do you place on the odds somebody other than you gets a solo? I'm guessing it's a really, really small number.

The best result one of the smaller powers can expect from this game is a 3-way draw. The risk they would be taking is one of the players that would be eliminated would play king-maker to you and hand you a solo out of spite.

So the question is, is a 3-way draw any "better" than a 5-way draw? Some would say yes (fewer players included in the victory) while others would say no (a draw, is a draw, is a draw - still not a solo).

Midlands accepts the draw simply because I cannot honestly or reasonably expect a better result.
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on indefinite hiatus
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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby AardvarkArmy » 29 Sep 2013, 23:24

attitudes wrote: You own over half the map. The remaining four share less than half the map. You are, in a way, the victim of your own success.


this is, course, demonstrably nonsense: I own 14 centers, my 4 opponents own 27 between them. a gap of 34% vs 66%. it is not even a logical or rational statement - if I actually owned more than half the map, um, I would be a solo victor

nothing could have more powerfully proven my point about the bizarre, nearly delusional risk aversion in this game for
SOLOS
ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby attitudes » 29 Sep 2013, 23:40

AardvarkArmy wrote:
attitudes wrote: You own over half the map. The remaining four share less than half the map. You are, in a way, the victim of your own success.


this is, course, demonstrably nonsense: I own 14 centers, my 4 opponents own 27 between them. a gap of 34% vs 66%. it is not even a logical or rational statement - if I actually owned more than half the map, um, I would be a solo victor

nothing could have more powerfully proven my point about the bizarre, nearly delusional risk aversion in this game for

Whatever. The four of us are totally delusional and you are completely rational. We get it. We suck.

There is more to a map than the number of centers. I stand by my claim that you control over half the map.

I'm more than happy to take my four measly centers and accept a 5-way draw. You have taken what little possibility I had of continuing with this game and thrown it down the crapper with your continual berating and belittling of the remaining players in this game.

I hereby decree that from this point forward, I will simply be entering hold and support orders for my allies and will make zero attempt at increasing my lot in the game. I will defend my home centers but that is all.

Out.
Don't sweat the petty things and don't pet the sweaty things.

Be careful when you blindly follow the masses. Sometimes, the M is silent.

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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby AardvarkArmy » 30 Sep 2013, 00:19

attitudes wrote: There is more to a map than the number of centers. I stand by my claim that you control over half the map.


quick count of all land and sea spaces: 37 mine vs 63 not mine. I stand by my claim that there is something bizarrely delusional about the attitudes in this game (pun not really intended)

attitudes wrote: You have taken what little possibility I had of continuing with this game and thrown it down the crapper with your continual berating and belittling of the remaining players in this game


chicken and egg my friend. chicken and egg. The berating is coming as a RESULT of years of non-effort by multiple players.
SOLOS
ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby GhostEcho » 30 Sep 2013, 05:09

As I've mentioned to just about everyone by now, I don't see my Aiel managing better than a draw from this position (barring massive screwups from Borderlands (if I attacked) and Winterfell (afterwards), neither of which seems particularly likely). Even if we could knock the draw down a power or two, it still wouldn't be a victory, and whittling would achieve only the minor catharsis of a few more centers making things more brown.

Aiel accepts the DIAS proposal. Recriminations can wait for the AARs, if we're not all sick of the topic by then.
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"I'm not panicking, I'm watching you panic. It's more entertaining." - Elli Quinn
"[Diplomacy:] No dice or chance. Just calculated insincerity." - Counter Trap
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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby Netr0 » 30 Sep 2013, 12:28

I accept the DIAS as well.
If you can, win.
If you can't, draw.
If you stab, succeed.
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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby drrnwrstlr » 30 Sep 2013, 14:17

I'm not going to be the only one that keeps this game going. D'Hara accepts the draw.
D'Hara in Battle Island A
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Re: Draw Proposal # 4

Postby Pedros » 30 Sep 2013, 16:40

Draw agreed. I will save my comments for the AAR.
"Sooner or later, one of us will stab the other. But for now we're both better off as allies" (kininvie)
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