Winter 07

(Played as Game A of 2) GM: Pedros. Result: DIAS (AardvarkArmy - Winterfell; GhostEcho - Aiel; Netr0 - Borderlands; attitudes - Midlands; drrnwrstlr - D'Hara)

Re: Winter 07

Postby Netr0 » 04 Sep 2013, 22:22

It is a forum game so couldn't 4 other powers send a mail with orders to be repeated indefinitely? Forcing an end to the game.

The point I was going to try to bring up before was that the map is a bit flawed... There are too many stalemate lines without any fluidity in naval battles. It seems as if you only need 2 fleets to defend dhara from winterfell and the rest can be blocked just as easy.

It would be nice if there were more regions that could be contested.
If you can, win.
If you can't, draw.
If you stab, succeed.
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Re: Winter 07

Postby AardvarkArmy » 04 Sep 2013, 22:33

Netr0 wrote:It is a forum game so couldn't 4 other powers send a mail with orders to be repeated indefinitely? Forcing an end to the game.

The point I was going to try to bring up before was that the map is a bit flawed... There are too many stalemate lines without any fluidity in naval battles. It seems as if you only need 2 fleets to defend dhara from winterfell and the rest can be blocked just as easy.

It would be nice if there were more regions that could be contested.



This is my point as well. The fear of a solo is waaaaay overwrought. It is entirely possible to hold a large enemy at bay while chomping on a smaller neighbor to grow yourself.

I actually am of the opnion that the game/map is fatally flawed in that regard - I think solo is ONLY possible if pretty much EVERY other player is either utterly incompetent or NMRs at all the wrong moments
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Re: Winter 07

Postby AardvarkArmy » 04 Sep 2013, 22:44

attitudes wrote:You appear on the surface to be much more frustrated than I. That's a lot of questions and grammatical mistakes for somebody calm, cool, and collected


LOL! Faaaaar from frustrated. I am, in fact, VERY pleased with the course of this game so far. Even if I don't solo (likely) and even if I somehow get beat back (unlikely), I have achieved objectives in terms of creating a virtually impenetrable shield of defense that I am very happy about.

Typo's and such due to sneaking 2 minutes to message while at work!!! LOL!
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Re: Winter 07

Postby GhostEcho » 05 Sep 2013, 01:22

As I've said in private correspondence, I'd be far more willing to listen if you hadn't jumped me the second you thought my back was turned last time. Had I been even a mite less suspicious, you might even have succeeded - as it was, your attack stalled out after 1 SC gained.

Sure, you say, I attacked first. But that overlooks a critical difference: the instant it became apparent that I had no chance (because Riverrun screwed up his defense or simply didn't care), I bailed and did something else useful. Quoth you then:

AardvarkArmy wrote:Now that we are pulling away from the brink of war, I look forward to coordinating with you in the coming seasons...


When we did try coordinating, I went too slow for you, and you stabbed. That's a real confidence boost for alliance, eh? If it's representative of your dealings with other powers, it's no wonder nobody wants to risk things by starting a war on our side of the map. I'm probably the most vulnerable (to Borderlands) - but if he stabbed, he'd pick up 3, maybe 4 of my mainland centers; you'd almost certainly get the other 2 (or 3). That's 16 centers (at least) and an unstable border.

Alternatively, D'hara and Borderlands together could finish Midlands, but D'hara would get all or most of the centers - and another unstable border for Borderlands.

I don't have the troop count to mount an attack on Borderlands; Midlands can't plausibly attack either of his neighbors. A five way draw seems absurd and premature, and I'm not willing to call deadlock yet - but man, good options are hard to come by. Sure, your 14 centers aren't much - only 2/3 of the total needed - but they're also 5 more than anyone else has.
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Re: Winter 07

Postby AardvarkArmy » 05 Sep 2013, 04:39

GhostEcho wrote: When we did try coordinating, I went too slow for you, and you stabbed.


It's not that you went to slow... It's that you went too slow, AND moved to positions that blocked me from getting in the fight beside you, AND left your border with me COMPLETELY undefended (as I said in previous post, I NEVER ask that of an ally, never expect to see it, and never fail to avail of myself when someone foolishly does it - always, always, always maintain a defense!)

Plus, you share with Midlands the tendancy to make unrealistic demands. When negotiating, you have to accept reality if you are in a weaker position - you are free to demand this and demand that, but just don't expect a stronger power to throw away the farm just because you ask

GhostEcho wrote: Sure, your 14 centers aren't much - only 2/3 of the total needed - but they're also 5 more than anyone else has.


LOL!!! Yeah, date-stamp this note. See how silly it sounds three seasons from now...
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Re: Winter 07

Postby Netr0 » 05 Sep 2013, 05:31

So yes, the map is a bit too easy to defend and as you said earlier. The only way to solo is due to a major fail, or an nmr. As it stands you could defend the north and keep pushing east til you solo, or continue to wait until one of us stabs(which to do so only means you get to expand in one direction breaking the stalemate, which would put you in the position to take more cores). So that is why I support the draw, the map lacks a bit of fluidity and does not allow for any changes. I will say it was fun in the process though.

Possible changes for the map:
Add a few sea regions to enhance
Remove the 4 barriers in the island but keep the outer ones along the ocean. This would mean it would be harder to get in the island, but once on it strategy would be needed to conquer it.
Also perhaps change the north east. It seems like a waste waiting a year to get the sc then a year to leave it... and you could normally forget about the midlands/borderlands border since it takes 2years to attack.

Let me know what you think..

PS ill read the messages on the forums from people tomorrow :S Very tired right now.
If you can, win.
If you can't, draw.
If you stab, succeed.
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Re: Winter 07

Postby attitudes » 05 Sep 2013, 05:42

AardvarkArmy wrote:Plus, you share with Midlands the tendancy to make unrealistic demands.

LOL!!!!

The game would already be over if I accepted your unrealistic counter-demands.
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Re: Winter 07

Postby AardvarkArmy » 05 Sep 2013, 06:56

attitudes wrote: [The game would already be over if I accepted your unrealistic counter-demands.


actually, the game IS over for you. But it might have had a chance of going someplace for you if you hadn't been absurdly unreasonable.

For the record, so my definition of "unreasonable" is clarified:

In addition to wanting me to just give a gift of centers, Midlands position was that he could not work cooperatively with me unless we had essentially equal # of centers AND he had an equal or BETTER growth potential. (and this was back when I was at like 8 or 10, less than half-way to "solo")

In other words, he can't work with a larger power for his own enrichment unless they come to a complete stop, shower him with charity centers, give up any strategically worthwhile positions that might offer hope of future growth, and wait 3 years for him to catch up and run on by.

Yeah. I really had to think long and hard about that before regretfully declining his beautiful offer.

But that was ok with me. I never really saw Midlands as a viable factor in this game anyway.


Oh, and also for the record, my alliance with D'Hara lasted longer than ANY other alliance on the board; and while I benefitted handsomely from the collapse of Riverrun, D'Hara benefitted well from the alliance as well... He is one of only 3 powers with a significant footprint on the big island... Is there ANY other power that has benefitted more from an alliance with ANY one else?

Propaganda comes in all flavors, but in the end, facts are facts...
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Re: Winter 07

Postby attitudes » 05 Sep 2013, 08:01

AardvarkArmy wrote:Oh, and also for the record, my alliance with D'Hara lasted longer than ANY other alliance on the board; and while I benefitted handsomely from the collapse of Riverrun, D'Hara benefitted well from the alliance as well... He is one of only 3 powers with a significant footprint on the big island... Is there ANY other power that has benefitted more from an alliance with ANY one else?

Propaganda comes in all flavors, but in the end, facts are facts...

Your alliance with WarSmith?? That's a laugh. You actually think you had a say in how he was going to play the game. You actually think that what you said to him convinced him of anything. Sorry to spoil your great negotiating myth but he came into this game with a pre-conceived game plan. You had zero influence on his strategy.

WarSmith S02 wrote:I had to pick an ally at some stage soon. And the way I decided was to be true to the actual fantasy book series - D'hara owns midlands!!! It has to be like that ;)


Facts are indeed facts. But you just keep thinking that you're the grand poohbah with your mighty impenetrable self. The main reason you are even in the position you are currently in (sorry Penguin) is because RiverRun played an incompetent game.

But hey, congratulations. You made it to Year 07 with a commanding lead and you're already in draw-whittling mode. The universe bows at the mecca that is AardvarkArmy.

You were at 10 with a guaranteed two more. I was at 4 with no hope of growth unless somebody graciously granted me a huge favor. You asked. I answered. You didn't like the answer. Had I agreed to split D'Hara's centers with you, you would have gotten the first 2 for sure and probably the first three. So I'm still stuck at 4 while you're at 15+. I now remind you that I'm also supposed to have an impenetrable defense or you will 100% of the time take advantage of your supposed ally. Yeah, you're right. That was an absurd request on my part.

The game is far from over for me. I'll be here until the 23rd century submitting orders.
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Re: Winter 07

Postby AardvarkArmy » 05 Sep 2013, 08:56

attitudes wrote: Your alliance with WarSmith?? That's a laugh. You actually think you had a say in how he was going to play the game. You actually think that what you said to him convinced him of anything. Sorry to spoil your great negotiating myth but he came into this game with a pre-conceived game plan. You had zero influence on his strategy.


Ummm... sorry to spoil your whiney fantasy, but I don't believe there is a single word in anything I have written, public or private, in which I make ANY claim to have influenced ANY moves of D'Hara. I said I was his ally - for a loooong time. And I said that he benefitted from that alliance. Both clearly verifiable facts. It was only because of that alliance that hew was able to pursue his grand scheme (which he had told me about, as well, lest you think you have been sitting on the secret of the century)

attitudes wrote: Facts are indeed facts. But you just keep thinking that you're the grand poohbah with your mighty impenetrable self.


grand poohbah? Not sure if you are a fan of Gilbert & Sullivan, or the Flintstones. I was merely responding to your assertion that I seemed disappointed with the status of the game; noting that to the contrary, I am having a blast! Sorry if you're not.

attitudes wrote: The main reason you are even in the position you are currently in (sorry Penguin) is because RiverRun played an incompetent game.


In Penguin's defense, I disagree. As I see it, every single one of us played a little game of rock-paper-scissors: Start by attacking land neighbor, start by attacking across the bridge, or start by going to the Island. D'Hara and Midlands both went "rock" and deadlocked. Riverrun and Aiel both went scissors and deadlocked. Borderlands was the only one to chose "paper" and got a free run at the island. I chose "rock" to Riverrun's "scissors" and got the better of him. Two of us got lucky with that "rock-paper-scissors" choice, and are now the leaders.

attitudes wrote: But hey, congratulations. You made it to Year 07 with a commanding lead and you're already in draw-whittling mode.
Um, again, I think I was responding to Netr0's assertion that this map appears prone to premature stalemate lines. Sorry if you are perturbed by a perception of reality that is shared by at least one other player who also has a real chance at gaining the lead.

attitudes wrote: You were at 10 with a guaranteed two more. I was at 4 with no hope of growth unless somebody graciously granted me a huge favor. You asked. I answered. You didn't like the answer. Had I agreed to split D'Hara's centers with you, you would have gotten the first 2 for sure and probably the first three. So I'm still stuck at 4 while you're at 15+.


As I noted in an earlier post, I absolutely WILL help an ally to gain centers... I just won't gift-wrap a center that I have already fought for. I was more than willing to do the former for you, but you would hear nothing but the latter.

attitudes wrote: The game is far from over for me. I'll be here until the 23rd century submitting orders.


Time will tell. Time will tell. I can only imagine how sour the grapes may be by then...
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DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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