AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw]

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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 21:36

Fuddin wrote:[size=150]The players:
I try to convince Germany to bounce Russia in Sweden, but Germany insists on moving his fleet to Holland instead of Denmark, saying "It'll be useful in supporting to Belgium".


As I start reading the other thoughts now, this reminds me of what eventually drove me mad trying to work with Germany... he basically was making himself friends with everyone and never assisting anything to get done until Italy finally convinced him to move on me instead of on Russia. With all the CA talks Germany was always "one more move" before he could do anything to Russia. Then Italy gets him to move to Bohemia, which really does nothing except stall my ability to attack Russia - which is basically what Italy wanted - he didn't want any of his allies getting "too strong", which is what eventually did him in, IMO - too much manipulation for Italy's benefit without returning the favor to his allies.

Germany just wanted to please everyone and would never really commit to attacking anyone. I guess it sort of ended up working as Russia allegedly didn't want to exclude Germany from the draw for all his help. England's reason given was at least more situational in not wanting to give me a chance to solo again.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 21:46

Fuddin wrote:The players:
[size=150]1904 - Italy's Greatest Moment

The way Italy played in this year was really something. It was so beast, so manipulative, so cool - it really seemed as though Italy was manipulating everyone on the board into doing his bidding. So, at this moment, I'm planning on sending MAO into the Mediterranean against Italy, English - MAO, and Bel - North (I trusted Germany) and NAO to Norwegian in an effort to take back Norway. I have been telling all of my plans to Germany, my closest ally. Italy's silky voice however, seduced Germany into turning traitor - he convinced Germany to turn on me. So, here I am, with the moves above entered, when Italy messages me, saying, "Hey England, Germany's about to stab you. He's told me everything you're considering. Watch out for Germany and Russia.", and I'm like, "What? No he isn't. If he's told you everything, then what am I planning to do?", and Italy proceeds to tell me all of my plans, and even which choices I'm considering, which I had only told Germany. So now I know Italy's telling the truth. So I say, "Okay, I believe you. What's the plan?", and Italy says, "Okay, Germany and Russia believe that we are going for a 3 way GRI draw. Germany thinks he will walk into Belgium unopposed in the fall, and he will support Russia into the North Sea. He will also move Munich to Vienna, and I will move to Tyrolia; Germany thinks that I will support Bohemia - Vienna next turn. Furthermore, they plan for France to do Par S Gas - Brest, and I have told them that I will cut MAO's support. However, I think this gives Russia too much power, so this is what will really happen: You, England, should not leave Belgium unguarded. Instead, move English to North, and in the fall, support North to hold. I will move Marseilles to Burgundy to try to cut Germany's support and help you keep Bel. I will also walk into Munich unopposed, instead of supporting Germany to Vienna. And I won't cut MAO's support for holding Brest".


Ultimately this sums up all of Italy's game, IMO. He did the same thing with me on a couple of occasions - basically making plans to betray me but then telling me how to stop it. I'm pretty sure he was doing that on multiple sides - stalling his "allies" by betraying their moves without completely betraying them with a stab. It allowed him to cause the rest of us to waste moves defending against stabs Italy orchestrated and prevented at the same time. Again, ultimately his undoing, IMO - the rest of the board eventually quit listening and moved against him.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 22:09

Fuddin wrote:Continuing with Spring 1905
Fall 1913
I made a huge mistake here. I meant to send a message to Germany and Russia to coordinate all our fall '13 moves, but I accidentally sent it to Austria and Russia instead (Austria is adjacent to Germany on the messaging tick boxes. Russia, not noticing this, replied to me and Austria. Suddenly, Austria was privy to all our plans for '13. As soon as I realized my mistake, I messaged Russia and Germany saying something like, "I'm an idiot and I hate myself. I accidentally messaged Austria and he knows all our plans now. Please shoot me". So we discussed how to do damage control, and we decided that we were going to change our plan, but continue the message thread between Russia/me and Austria, pretending to not have noticed that we had accidentally included Austria. In our fake thread, we "decided" to not defend Belgium or Warsaw, whereas in reality, we defended those. It worked. (Austria - you musta been confused. To make it clear - those first two messages actually were mistakes where we didn't realize we sent them to you. But the latter two were fake). Oh, and we did a friendly destroy of Russia's North Sea fleet - I would dislodge it, and he would destroy it and rebuild it in Sev, where it was badly needed.


This was an awesome moment in the game. After these moves went down, I messaged you to make sure you knew. I was certain the early messages were real. I also figured either you or Russia would have to notice and at some point the messages would become fake but it was kind of a 50/50 guessing game here anyway and I might as well take a shot. After my moves failed, I made sure you knew that I was in on it so you could quit the ruse. I didn't want to have to guess which were real messages and which were fake any more... Also forgot about this doing my write up since I let too much time pass first.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 22:15

mjparrett wrote:So 1904/5, the key season. I had a plan, I really did. I'd be interested to hear from my fellow players (mainly Austria as he was the guy that stabbed me), if I talked and persuaded too much? Or did I just leave myself too open?


I stopped at this point. Looking forward to reading more. Ultimately your downfall was the double crosses and, more so, the triple crosses, and the quadruple crosses - you simply proved to be too manipulative for your own good. There was enough discussion in this game that it didn't work. I knew what others were saying you were doing and I could see what you were saying to me. Ultimately, you had too many schemes working and thus I couldn't trust you. I think others felt the same way. It really was a masterful plan and if a couple of the players in this one were more the silent type, you might have gotten away with it. Too much communication from all countries was your downfall, imo.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 22:26

mjparrett wrote:Then, despite all my lovely words, my saving of his life, my promise of friendship to the end and the promised two way land... AUSTRIA STABBED ME. WTF?! How could he?!? It turns out for him it was the right move, but we will gloss over that fact and just call him a sneaky bastard. There, I said it. Austria you are a sneaky bastard. God I feel better now. As above I'd love to know the reason. Had I been too sneaky? Was someone out there playing the "everyone stop Italy card" really strongly? After all I had told you (all proved to be true), I was so sure you wouldn't trust Germany or Russia again. But you betrayed me. I need a lie down.


this is hilarious and one of the reasons I absolutely loved this game - the communication was thorough and awesome. As I've said a couple of times, your undoing was being too sneaky. Basically you saved my life at the cost of any tempo/momentum I had. You orchestrated the moves to condemn me to obscurity and then you saved me from... YOU! :) I was grateful but also annoyed. If you wanted to work with me, you could have actually worked with me and allowed me to grow with you rather than stall my growth for your own benefit.

Basically I could see what you were doing. I had no desire to be a puppet to eventually be used for your own gain and my own demise when the time was right. So, I took the info that you fed back to me on your triple cross and went back to Russia, told him what you did, begged his forgiveness for my sins of betrayal and went about the work that we started before.

On a different note, seeing some of the other comments tells me that all the quiet out of Russia that led me to betray him for potential solo wasn't unfounded. It was just being busy that caused his silence but him actively discussing coming at me instead of staying true to the 2 way. Makes me feel better about the move I made.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 22:45

Shyvve wrote:I post in the PP one message from England and one from Austria, received right at the time that the fall turn was processed, where they revealed to me that they each knew since before the spring turn what was going on and that I'd be moving against them both. This does paint Italy in a very bad light but it also spotlights how effectively I played the dupe role in all this.


I forgot you posted these in public. That really was Italy's final undoing. I was already annoyed at his manipulating people to slow his partners down even though he showed up as the "hero" and loyal. Seeing that the same had happened with England verses you made my mind up that I really couldn't ally with Italy any longer.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 23:00

champinoman wrote:In the Fall I spent most of my time trying to get Austria to assist me into Rum so that we could start working together. I had also agreed with Russia that they attack Rum with Ukr so that we had no issues with a possible fleet build in Sev this year. However Austria made a play that I quite enjoyed (even if it was at my expense) and supported both of us into Rum which caused Russia to have to capture it with Sev or not capture it at all. In hindsight I have doubts whether Russia would have taken Rum from Ukr without this, but we’ll never know. I also spent a fair bit of time trying to entice Italy to attack Austria, which they did, but it was bounced and looked like a pretty obvious fake attack to me.


I forgot about the move to support both of you together. I did like that idea.

Also, have seen it said a couple times that the early Italy stab on Austria was thought to be faked. I assure you it was not and I was not at all happy about it. We did work it out but it was most definitely not in my plans but it did seem very obvious to me and thus easy to stop from occurring.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 23:07

Shyvve wrote:
Fuddin wrote:Final Thoughts
I agree with mjparrett that this is the most fun game of online Diplomacy I've been in (granted, I've only been in 4 games, including this one).
So, a few thoughts on different turning points where things could have gone differently:

1) Oh Shyvve. If you hadn't turned traitor in '04 and attacked me along with Russia - if we had stayed together, we could have been powerful! We coulda stuck it to both Russia and Italy!

2) I wonder what would have happened if I had told Russia about that convoy in fall 1905, and suggested to him that he do Sil-Mun, War-Liv. Shyvve: would you have exploded at Italy? Probably you and Italy would not have later united against me when I went on my attack,

3) Fall 1907: I wonder what would have happened if I actually helped G/I create the stalemate line. 5 way draw? Or would the game have become fluid again?

4) Fall, 1915: Russia, if you had more time, would you have kept on playing and tried to solo?

1. When the Russia vs Austria war broke out on the F03 turn, I really thought the three of REG might form that 3-way Northern Triple. Unfortunately, Russia also snagged the vacant Nwy on this turn too, the very turn Austria turned on Russia. So, in my eyes the Northern Triple was dead. I'd just also gotten myself into Bur and felt I might soon get out of my box.
Then Italy dangled the shiny object of an RIG, with me having Vienna, and this coupled with my increasing appetite to snag Bel from you, sealed that fateful ill-advised choice of mine in S04...

2. I would probably have suffered a cerebral aneurysm necessitating the need for a replacement player...

3. Tough one here. I'd wager a very short-term and shaky GEI alliance with you eventually joining R/A.

4. Not my question here, but over the last two, maybe three turns, I had begun probing Russia to see if 2-way draw talks had been renewed by R/A. I thought Austria might agree to hold his position while Russia tried for English home centers.
I never could re-establish any meaningful dialog with Austria post-04 to see whether such talks had re-opened between them.

5.? I was truly astonished to see the 4-way draw go through. This game still had some play but I think the very last turn's resolution might have disheartened the Archduke just barely enough that he very, very reluctantly held his nose and accepted the draw.


4. Yes, I was quite set on seeing your ultimate demise in this game. My big regret is not making it happen! I did enjoy playing with you and highly look forward to doing so again in the future. This game, however, I was really plotting to have you removed. I tried very hard for that to happen.

5. lmao... exactly it. I held my nose and accepted. I knew I couldn't solo, had talked to Russia about a possible dual but he was now in position to have me scrambling and I didn't want to have to try to rally things to stop him from the solo.

Also, there was one set of moves near the end that England tried to pass me info that would allow you to be "accidentally" eliminated and the 3 way be accepted but I didn't see the message until it was too late.
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby Iggy » 20 Aug 2017, 23:15

AleBelly wrote:1905
After the moves, his explanation is that my absence of communication led him to believe that I was going to stab him. I really hope he chimes in here to tell me if this is bullshit or not.



I wasn't planning to move on you yet. I did have big hopes for a solo but was wanting to wait on that move. I didn't think the time was right yet, and proved to not be with your moves as well. Had we talked here, it would have been another season or so before I tried to solo... might have been more effective too! :D
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Re: AAR 130529: "Why is my blood on your knife?" [4 way draw

Postby AleBelly » 21 Aug 2017, 01:10

Iggy wrote:
AleBelly wrote:1905
After the moves, his explanation is that my absence of communication led him to believe that I was going to stab him. I really hope he chimes in here to tell me if this is bullshit or not.



I wasn't planning to move on you yet. I did have big hopes for a solo but was wanting to wait on that move. I didn't think the time was right yet, and proved to not be with your moves as well. Had we talked here, it would have been another season or so before I tried to solo... might have been more effective too! :D


Yeah, I wasn't sure. My rationale behind my move was that I wanted to keep you from soloing, but I didn't move as strongly against you elsewhere as I could have. At that point I knew I'd lose a race to the solo, but I was trying to keep the door open to a 2-way.

I had also been playing a game of chicken against England. I was hoping he'd balance out his defensive forces to help keep the two of us on even footing, but that didn't happen.
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