Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comment

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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby gsmx » 06 Feb 2016, 08:58

Interesting to hear. I wasn't sure if the silver/bronze were motivational or superfluous, so good to get some feedback on that. I can appreciate how just getting a strong game set up could be a good prize in itself.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby Buachaille » 06 Feb 2016, 22:24

gsmx, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability, I wonder if you'd return the favour? Understand that I have not formed an opinion on these matters, I'm just very interested in the subjects and particularly the opinion of our high heid yins :D

You've said that don't agree with the anti-whittling taken by Charlie and Carebear (as espoused by thewysecat) but not really explained why. Do you fancy talking us through the logic behind your refutation of that particular rationale?

gsmx wrote:We have some flaws in our ranking system which i feel is causing people not to completely invest in it which means the way the site tries to incentivize players to play with a unified win goal in mind (max your points to go up the ranks) is not heavily factored leaving everybody to individually choose what they feel is their definition of a "win".


When you say 'not heavily factored' what do you mean specifically? Is it not the case that our system is heavily factored in favour of solos?

gsmx wrote:For some this is solo or die, for others it's best possible outcome without elimination, for some it's determined by how much fun they had in the game, for some it's whether or not the accomplished the moral victory, and so on. My opinion is this lack of linking of games and everybody playing a 'common game' is causing the game quality and site community to suffer.


Is this not the case for any site and indeed this issue true of the game as a whole? Is there any site that's got it right and doesn't suffer from this divide in a 'common cause' and if so, how have they achieved that?
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby gsmx » 07 Feb 2016, 08:52

Buachaille wrote:gsmx, I've answered your questions to the best of my ability, I wonder if you'd return the favour? Understand that I have not formed an opinion on these matters, I'm just very interested in the subjects and particularly the opinion of our high heid yins :D

Always happy to talk game philosopshy.
Buachaille wrote:You've said that don't agree with the anti-whittling taken by Charlie and Carebear (as espoused by thewysecat) but not really explained why. Do you fancy talking us through the logic behind your refutation of that particular rationale?

At this risk of dragging his thread off topic, i've started a new thread here - viewtopic.php?f=31&t=52026

Buachaille wrote:
gsmx wrote:We have some flaws in our ranking system which i feel is causing people not to completely invest in it which means the way the site tries to incentivize players to play with a unified win goal in mind (max your points to go up the ranks) is not heavily factored leaving everybody to individually choose what they feel is their definition of a "win".


When you say 'not heavily factored' what do you mean specifically? Is it not the case that our system is heavily factored in favour of solos?

I think my meaning here is missed. I do believe we got it quite right with the influencers in the rating system to encourage solos, however i also believe there are unrelated problems with the current system (heavy fluctuations, especially for new players) that i suspect are causing our players to less invested in the rating system and therefore these influencers aren't having the impact on play style as they otherwise would.

Buachaille wrote:
gsmx wrote:For some this is solo or die, for others it's best possible outcome without elimination, for some it's determined by how much fun they had in the game, for some it's whether or not the accomplished the moral victory, and so on. My opinion is this lack of linking of games and everybody playing a 'common game' is causing the game quality and site community to suffer.


Is this not the case for any site and indeed this issue true of the game as a whole? Is there any site that's got it right and doesn't suffer from this divide in a 'common cause' and if so, how have they achieved that?

No i can't say i know one that has it mastered at the moment, but that's not to say it's still not a worthwhile goal to focus on.

For all it's flaws i have to say under our old system i did get a general feeling under our old system that at least there was a heavier investment from a larger portion of the population to want to rise through the ranks, likely to it being a little more basic as to how to go through the ranks. Get a solo you get 12 points, get a 2-way you get 6, and so on. It was prone to abuse and had a high requirement to play volume games to get anywhere (hence the change) but there was a noticeable more-common mentality under that system. Really you had a lot of competitive players split into three categories: soloists, players who cherry-picked surrenders, and players who got reputations of being super loyal and were able to get high volume of 3WD's which at least lead to decent enough competitive community and interesting games. The rating change was worthwhile so not suggesting we go back to it, just pointing out from a gaming community there's potential to improve the focus in the community.

Hope that answers your questions. If you want to carry on, please start a new thread so we can go deeper into it as i don't really think this is the best place for it.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby BullCall » 09 Feb 2016, 19:16

I feel the PDEC was been awesome overall and highest calibre games I have ever played. I would say having perhaps a little play left in the Gold board at draw time should not diminish what was a great tournament. I think it might reflect a little Diplomacy fatigue though, which I must admit I felt as well though I really liked being able to play in the Bronze game. My thanks to the organizers, TDs and rule writers. I thoroughly enjoyed the experience and it has certainly helped open my eyes to the difficulty (and attraction) of a solo against high level opponents. Count me in for the next PDEC, but don't tell my employer how much I was messaging at the office...
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby KarmaOverDogma » 11 Feb 2016, 13:52

Great AAR. It shows how much of a tough game this was with such great players and the constant messaging at odd hours for me broke my back. All of that for you to know who I was in the first year! Damn.
Buachaille wrote: - 3. Spring ‘04 Germany makes a move on Hol while France moves to NAO. I make it very clear to Germany that France has set up the attack so that Germany’s the initial aggressor and as result I’ll defend against him not France. If he forces a disband it’ll be to France’s advantage not his. He not only forces the disband by taking Hol but prevents me from defending Lon by bouncing me out of NTH. At this stage I feel I have no choice but to follow through with my threats and disband Lvp, giving France Lon & Lvp in an attempt to unbalance the relationship. I also know I can take Swe from Germany and continue to make it clear to him that I’ll throw all my forces in to defending against him, not France.
I do not remember this is the slightest that you wouldn't defend against France. It's amazing that we all wanted France to be our partner so badly. It's a great nation to be for a great player. A shame Italy spilled the beans on my anti-France plan in 1901.

I haven't read all the discussions going on just the AARs. Do we know yet who kept voting down the carnage system despite us all agreeing via PM before the game started? I think it would have been a much better game as a result.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby gsmx » 12 Feb 2016, 00:08

KarmaOverDogma wrote:I haven't read all the discussions going on just the AARs. Do we know yet who kept voting down the carnage system despite us all agreeing via PM before the game started? I think it would have been a much better game as a result.

No, don't think that person has come foward yet.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby WHSeward » 13 Feb 2016, 04:40

Got asked a question by PM and I thought I would answer it here too. I will not reveal any of the voting from the game, voters, number of votes, NVRs, whatever. I did reveal (in public press) after each vote if there was an NVR present.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby glyndwr23 » 16 Feb 2016, 05:07

I do not believe it would be appropriate for me to discuss philosophy at this point, but I wanted to chime in with two points.

1) be careful about judging the outcomes of games you didn't play in. Am I disappointed in this ending as a spectator? Absolutely! But this is diplomacy: just because I can see the pieces on the board doesn't mean I understand the relationships between the players. We spextators dont have all the facts. For instance, after hearing Charlie's explanation, I honestly don't think I would have played it that way but I get it. Not having good communication with Germany is definitely a motivating factor that is not obvious from a surface glance. Diplomatic relations set the tone, and none of us know what was being said. I can't imagine being in a 6way draw in a final game, but I don't think any of these guys could either...yet it happened. Be disappointed, but don't throw stones unless you were there. Gold players, throw all the stones you want!

2) PDET was great! Were there problems? Yup. Were there rules I didn't like? Yup. Do I wish site rules were different sometimes? Yup. Am I burned out, absolutely. But these don't distract from the overwhelmingly positive experience of playing with quality people...sometimes doing well, sometimes getting crushed. And I am burned out because I was pushed to the utter limits by my quality opponents while doing something I enjoyed. It is a good kind of burn out, and I'm glad for the opportunity to be challenged.

Gsmx brings up some very valid points about gameplay philosophy, and I will have some things to share, but the timing is not appropriate now. More later. Congratulations to all 7 gold players, all pdet tournament participants, and my sincerest thanks to the organizers.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby Buachaille » 16 Feb 2016, 13:19

glyndwr23 wrote:I do not believe it would be appropriate for me to discuss philosophy at this point, but I wanted to chime in with two points.

1) be careful about judging the outcomes of games you didn't play in. Am I disappointed in this ending as a spectator? Absolutely! But this is diplomacy: just because I can see the pieces on the board doesn't mean I understand the relationships between the players. We spextators dont have all the facts. For instance, after hearing Charlie's explanation, I honestly don't think I would have played it that way but I get it. Not having good communication with Germany is definitely a motivating factor that is not obvious from a surface glance. Diplomatic relations set the tone, and none of us know what was being said. I can't imagine being in a 6way draw in a final game, but I don't think any of these guys could either...yet it happened. Be disappointed, but don't throw stones unless you were there. Gold players, throw all the stones you want!

2) PDET was great! Were there problems? Yup. Were there rules I didn't like? Yup. Do I wish site rules were different sometimes? Yup. Am I burned out, absolutely. But these don't distract from the overwhelmingly positive experience of playing with quality people...sometimes doing well, sometimes getting crushed. And I am burned out because I was pushed to the utter limits by my quality opponents while doing something I enjoyed. It is a good kind of burn out, and I'm glad for the opportunity to be challenged.

Gsmx brings up some very valid points about gameplay philosophy, and I will have some things to share, but the timing is not appropriate now. More later. Congratulations to all 7 gold players, all pdet tournament participants, and my sincerest thanks to the organizers.


Very well said glyndwr23.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby KimberStormer » 09 Mar 2016, 12:09

I think Kimber Stormer once said something on a forum that playing for a solo is the only way to be fair to everyone and respect all. No-one is being treated unfairly, because the solo is the victory condition.


Mindboggling to think I might have had some small influence on the big final game of what was apparently some kind of enormous tournament? But flattering to be remembered, ta Charlie.

I still believe this, but I'm less inclined to blame the players (a la wyse "you are being a dick in a real world sense" and suchlike self-righteousness), and more inclined to blame the game design. If someone winning was the guaranteed result of every game, it would be better for everyone, from bloodthirsty savages like myself to noble comrades like Jack007. For one example, gsmx and crew would be un-disappointed with this game because someone would have won, of course; and the big debate would perhaps be between Charlie's "Winner take all" scoring style (I am completely on your side, Charlie) and people who think you should get more points for coming second than coming third, etc. (In my opinion, the only real flaw in Survivor.) But it's hard to imagine how different the culture would be, so I hardly expect people to see where I'm coming from.

I really must go now again. Be excellent to each other.
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