Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comment

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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby mhsmith0 » 05 Feb 2016, 07:52

One question that comes to my mind is: at what point does the pressure to have a ridiculous amount of communications simply become too much?

charliep007 wrote:
1/Its highly possible/probable - and maybe not even in the conscious, but subconscious. I just did a quick data dump from me sent messages - from 1st Dec to 1st Feb I send a whopping 1500 messages! Now we even took one week off plus a few other days. So the level of communication was intense at times. Its possible folk felt that. Its such an intensity that it is hard to describe unless you've played such a game.



That's freaking insane, and if that's at all common, then no wonder there was burnout.

I have to wonder if there's something of an arms race going on in terms of communications frequency where people feel like they have to out-talk everyone else, and soon you get in a situation where you have someone like charliep sending out over six messages per phase per power just because he's pretty sure someone else is sending five and he can't let that guy out-talk him.

And then maybe someone else will pick up on that, and then get up to more like eight messages per power per turn, and it just gets nuttier and nuttier.

And frankly, if that's what it really takes to play on an elite level, then I'll probably end up just sticking to gunboat or finding some other fun way to pass the time.


PS I can the point about the difficulties of running a tournament, and I've barely started on mine. It's interesting, but it's extremely frustrating sometimes as well.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby charliep007 » 05 Feb 2016, 08:11

Mhsmith0 I think you raise an interesting and valid point. I'm not quite sure how get to the bottom of that one. Message tempo is fascinating for sure. I think I try not to message for messages sake, but when you've got 7 guys round a table who hardly ever lose a game, it's probably a strong indicator that they are all highly competitive folks and don't like losing. I think it's that type of drive that spurs the comittment to the battle and produces more messages as the battle rages. Also you got a number of players up against each other who are all experienced at managing a board, when they all come together in a game like this, there is a lot of managing to do. It's high quality for sure. I reckon we will be able to publish a few examples of exchanges in communications if that is helpful (and we've not been banned from the site for having a 6 way draw) - I'm starting to feel like a play dip leper for playing in this game!

Good luck with your tournament, I hope that you are not affected too much by folks quiting mid game. That is a real stinker.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby mhsmith0 » 05 Feb 2016, 08:23

charliep007 wrote:Mhsmith0 I think you raise an interesting and valid point. I'm not quite sure how get to the bottom of that one. Message tempo is fascinating for sure. I think I try not to message for messages sake, but when you've got 7 guys round a table who hardly ever lose a game, it's probably a strong indicator that they are all highly competitive folks and don't like losing. I think it's that type of drive that spurs the comittment to the battle and produces more messages as the battle rages. Also you got a number of players up against each other who are all experienced at managing a board, when they all come together in a game like this, there is a lot of managing to do. It's high quality for sure. I reckon we will be able to publish a few examples of exchanges in communications if that is helpful (and we've not been banned from the site for having a 6 way draw) - I'm starting to feel like a play dip leper for playing in this game!

Good luck with your tournament, I hope that you are not affected too much by folks quiting mid game. That is a real stinker.


I do think some examples of communications would be useful so we can see what you're talking about.

It may also be helpful on some high level boards just to try and establish an understanding that not everyone is going to message everyone else constantly for weeks turning into months at a time.

And on that note, does anyone know what communications levels were like on the silver and bronze boards? Were they similar to this, or did the gold board just totally spiral out of control? If they were much lower (while still being an elite level of play), how did the people there create a more reasonable environment?

Similarly, I think there have been "top 7" type matchups before around here. How did the communications level there compare to this one? If we can figure out whether there's something structural that pushes ridiculous communications levels for high-end matchups, or if this was more just something where you had a bunch of constant talkers trying to out-do each other, that might help move us towards actually solving the problem of this match (which from what I can gather, was a combination of emotional burnout and at least some players simply no longer having the time to indulge this kind of high-maintenance matchup).


PS In my tournament, I'm still dealing with the difficulties of getting people to correctly sign up for their assigned powers. Some games are in 1904, and some games haven't even filled up yet. I've already had to shutter three games because the wrong powers were signed up for, and then I added some reserves to replace the three with five, and now there are three games sitting at six powers. *bangs head against wall repeatedly*

But yes, I'm SO looking forward to the hunt for substitutes to deal with surrendered positions. That will be just AWESOME.

Actually, since it's gunboat, I kind of expect that we'll see some players bow out quickly (it's hard to negotiate your way out of a hole when you can't negotiate), and occasional solo runs that the board missed because they couldn't coordinate peace efforts to stop the solo-ist. So HOPEFULLY surrenders won't be a huge problem. But we'll see. I've pretty much warned everyone ahead of time that surrenders happen, and I'm not even going to ask reserves to fill in for obviously non-viable positions.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby gsmx » 05 Feb 2016, 09:36

charliep007 wrote:From gsmx
If i'm being honest, i think the brand of the PDET is a little too dented and scratched up at this point and may best be left as a one-off while we take the lessons learned and create an entirely new tournament series for the next time around with an entirely new spin on it.


Really? 43 games played over a year with a decent standard across each game. The vast majority of players participated in more than one game and most of the comments have been highly positive (from those who played in it) yes tweaking for sure, that process has been going for months now.

Though perhaps GSMX maybe you'd like to step up and run a tournament that will have the appropriate spin on it? A lot of people invested a lot of time in this, to just make those comments when you didn't participate (accept as a sub in one game) is kinda rude. I think these games have probably helped many players game style, helped shine a light on the commonly used tactic of 'let's play for a 2way solo trick' produced some very quality games and helped many to identify other players that are worth playing again. Added to that we had only a handful of nmrs and surrenders. If you are writing off the brand because of a 6 way draw in the gold table where the aars are not yet submitted I think that is a little excessive. It's a shame, I did have a bunch of respect for your opinion gsmx, but your comments in these recent days is really impacting that negatively. You've been a great ambassador for this site and when you make comment people sit up and listen (and rightly so) but I'm finding that your contributions are perhaps starting to be counter productive.

I REALLY ENJOYED THE gold final. I was tested and pushed more than ever before, no game on this site I've played in was as testing and the only other to compare it with was a cross site game with guys from webdip. I was stretched in the gold table more than ever before and I loved it and will remember this game with great affection. If you want to be a hater, can I suggest you hate elsewhere and leave this thread alone?

You're being overly sensistive here due to this being your baby. I'm hardly "hating", I'd been extremely subjective in the AAR and doing all i can to reserve any judgement and encourage others to do the same while trying to gather useful feedback for future games. I've been and continue to be more then supportive of any effort put into anything of this nature I've given nothing but praise to the high quality of play in the final game despite any feelings i've had about the outcome. I've even gone so far as to defend the gold players in the cause of the ending, citing it as being more tied to the design.

Yes tournaments are hard to orchestrate and even harder to have a crystal ball to know what's going to work well and what isn't. This is by no means a knock against you or those who contributed towards it and you've seen no finger pointing from me to ever elude anything remotely close to that. Yes, there's been vocalness towards necessarily tweaks in the tournament but this should be something that would be considered valued feedback if there's a desire to do this again. Don't take that as a personal slight, i'm not slinging mud.

As for my comment regarding the tournament brand itself, I'll concede that my wording probably wasn't thoughtfully chosen so I'll apologize for that lapse in sensitivity to the organizers and administrators and will backtrack to explain what I was really trying to drive at with that statement.

My point on this is twofold.

Yes, the final game six-way draw did leave a bad taste in some peoples mouths and probably would have some deterrent effect for some which given the not huge pool of participants qualified to play in this tournament isn't irrelevant. Yes you could probably with enough time you could PR away the last images of the tournament and refocus back on the earlier good stuff, i just don't know if it's not just easier trying again under a new banner.

Much more relevant though was the intensity of the tournament (even as high quality as they were) did seem to cause a great deal of burnout leaving it a challenge to try to repeat with a similar scale anytime in the near future. My speculation is you'll simply get a lot of "Oh my god, i'm still reeling from the last time .. i'm not ready to go through that again" type attitudes for at least a year probably. You're already looking at a number of 'tweaks' that have come up which may or may not make it look fairly different by the time it's been overhauled anyways and still would need to give it downtime to refresh your player base still dealing with the PDET hangover. A new/different tournament likely would be a lot more digestible for the player base right now then trying to jump right back into the weeds again. There's a reason that there's a such a big downtime between things like Top 7 games, those things take a lot out of people and they need time in between to want to jump back into it but other/different big challenges they're (we're) more likely to participate in as early as right away.

But if this really isn't feedback you find welcome, then my all means i'm happy to bow out of this discussion altogether. You're absolutely right, i really had very little involvement in this tournament whatsoever so may very well not be the best person to help drive conversations about it.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby Zosimus » 05 Feb 2016, 15:20

I would say that the time limits were too short. It would have been better to have 72 hour moves without a one-week break than 48 hour deadlines with a one-week break.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby Buachaille » 05 Feb 2016, 15:34

gsmx wrote:Awesome AAR and interesting feedback, thanks Buachaille!

Just a few questions to tie into the underlying discussion that's going on so we can understand better and provide insight for future tournaments from those who played throughout...

My interpretation of what you said was that yes, the seeding determining winning greatly influenced your style of play and forced you into hail-mary mode from almost the start.
- Did this make things more/less enjoyable for you? Is this an obvious point for change and if so then suggestions for improvement on this?


I argued that final should be stand alone in the thread that CB linked, voted to make the game stand alone before we started and then again once we'd got going. I admitted and still do that there was some self interest in me holding that stance but I think I'm capable of sufficient objectivity that I amnae letting that colour my opinion.

I think the final should also be un ranked to free it as much as possible from meta game (making it freestanding will free it from the tournament meta game). I think the qualifiers should still be ranked as the tournament meta game impacts more than the ranking system meta game. The benefit is that I believe ranked games will encourage more top players to play in the first place.

gsmx wrote:- Did the higher bar for you personally to win effect your draw decision and if this were a standalone game would you have been more prone to fight on?
You mentioned you were surprised the draw went through.
- Were you hoping it would go through or voting for it purely for strategic/diplomatic reasons and hoping somebody else would shoot it down?


Perhaps a little. I will try and list the factors that influenced me accepting the draw in no particular order:

The hopelessness of my position. Was I going to solo from there (2 SCs, no home SCs and a distance from them) and crucially against that board of players? I don't think so.

Was I using my inclusion in a draw, versus sacrificing myself and whoever I was arguing with by giving someone else a solo as a tactic? Yes. Did therefore my inclusion in a draw, not matter how tawdry it may appear to everyone else, seem like a small victory for my diplomacy at the time? Undeniably.

Would I have rather seen a 3 way draw that I wasn't included in? No. Would I have rather seen a solo by someone else? More difficult; I'd have certainly rather seen a solo than a 3way I wasn't included in but I guess this is where the ranking system meta game had a small influence. Was I keen to lose points? Not particularly although it wasn't the main factor.

Was it considerable effort even staying alive in my position? Yes. In a game where sending 100+ messages in one phase wasn't uncommon, even if there was some reduction in workload proportional to my SC count, it was still hard work to not just be eliminated, to keep trying to influence the game and better my position.

gsmx wrote:- Would it have been better if the draw were secret?


Given that the only aspect of it that wasn't secret was that France proposed it, I don't think that being a secret would have made any difference.

gsmx wrote:Did the game being ranked and consolation of recuperating rating influence your decision for the draw? Would you have played on were this not an influencer?

As you mentioned going on a break, how bad was the burnout for you? Influence on draw?


I've dealt with some of this above. I had conversations in game with two players about burn out. One of those I'd had the same conversation in the previous game too. Now I admit that this can be a ploy (for me too) but my sense is that there's really a fair bit of truth in it even if there's hope that it may gain some leverage. Certainly that's the case for me. There were two other players in game who seemed to have real life influences affecting their game. This game went on over Christmas and New Year which is a busy time for me with work and family and was the back of a whole year of solid high level games. I'm not really so surprised it ended the way it did. Would I have knocked back the draw if any the tournament and ranking system meta games were not an issue? I honestly don't know. The fatigue and weakness of my position would've still been present and I can't say accurately what I would have decided.

Zosimus wrote:Second, this story reminds me of a tendency by many players (often mediocre ones)


That's the lesson of this game for me. I was lucky to qualify and out of my depth whilst there. My mistakes were ridiculously basic and felt very much like a child amongst adults.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby Zosimus » 05 Feb 2016, 18:12

Buachaille wrote:That's the lesson of this game for me. I was lucky to qualify and out of my depth whilst there. My mistakes were ridiculously basic and felt very much like a child amongst adults.


Yeah, I didn't sign up for PDET for exactly that reason.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby I Love Italy » 05 Feb 2016, 21:29

Marking.

Great game to all! Good to see such a strong Italian player ;)
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby charliep007 » 05 Feb 2016, 22:06

Buachaille wrote:That's the lesson of this game for me. I was lucky to qualify and out of my depth whilst there. My mistakes were ridiculously basic and felt very much like a child amongst adults.


Just want to chime in on this one quickly, I'm going to disagree, you weren't out of your depth in the slightest, i'll cover specifics in detail, but you 100% pulled the wool over my eyes in S01 and you stretched me diplomatically to the maximum. If you were out of your depth, I'd be terrified of what will come in the future as your game develops. Also you being stretched out wasn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact at one point you were seen by all as the major threat with the ability to walk into many home centres. You had played into a very strong position and not many people would have been able to do that. I think your tactics were right on the money, what led to me stabbing you was more that I had an unease about how much I could trust you as we developed because in all honesty I felt that you would fear me as your neighbour too much and it would have jeopardised our chances of controlling the board. That was why I struck when I did, and all the more so because as S01 showed, I couldn't get a read on you. I'm going to hazard a guess that you will have taken some ideas away from this game which will only make you stronger going in the future - A bit like for me when I lost the top7 game 2 summers ago.

From my perspective, you are one tough cookie player.
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Re: Elite Championship AAR:110816 PDEC Gold-for all to comme

Postby Kra » 06 Feb 2016, 00:35

First and foremost, PDET was a great experience always around for me. The games had high level communication and all kept me working hard.
I would do it all over again and the only major change required is gold table should be a stand alone game for the tourney title. It was intense timewise ( I enjoyed my one 3/1/1 the most and I was worn out despite 2 games off but I was in other games as well so that as my choice!) so we do need to decrease the fatigue. Other points are just tweaking etc . This was a fabulous series of games with high quality competition. And it should be repeated in some fashion.

I know there has been sentiment to only have the gold finals but the possibility of the silver and bronze tables were incentives for me.
That incentive was magnified throughout the whole course of the tourney for me by starting with a loss in PDET1 in one of the best games I have played in here by shooting high in game 1 and not taking the points of a guaranteed 3 way that I had put myself in control. I would love to sit a dip table with all 7 of those players again, even you Dax ;) and you know I want a good game not revenge seeking.
And then one of my frustrating games played in with the horrific 5 way of PDET2. Irony that three of us ended up in bronze together and I didn't want any of us except maybe JonS to ever be at a table as a group again. But it still had intense communications, stabs, lies and honorable loyalty with the latter leading to the 5 way draw. The relationships were as Unbreakable as a stalemate line since like bronze table survivors, who ever made the move was going to face the consequences of an unbeatable league against you.
And then having to take 2 games off for international travel.
The additional lower tier tables gave me an opportunity for another game with high quality players who had fought to get there and no 1915 and no 3 way pressures although ironically we ended that way.
I know this could have gone in the other PDET/C threads but tourney criticism was raised here.

Second it is interesting to read AARs but the players In the game have the relationships and communications that really shape the game. This game was being played for some glory but first foresmost everyone of these players were playing a game between themselves. This tournament was a vehicle to acheive that, just as the very high quality PDET games were.

Third I have no doubt this 6 way draw was a high quality intense experience for the involved players. Having been accused of a boring (and conservative) Bronze Game from the cheap seats as well as having my demise predicted, the bronze table was very high quality stimulating game with excellent communication and very intense AND we were tired. And time pressures for closure were present as well.
And it had an early Silesia move. A few early stabs then shaped what followed which should be clear by the map without anyone knowing the intense intragame communications.
Hopefully, I will get to go write my own AAR but some of us do have RLs and are here for the games. And I put as much energy into the nonrank, etc as I do the High level games. The postmortem dialog is one more time commitment and not nearly as fun nor responsible to your own ongoing activities whether the other dip games you are in or the RL that hopefully we all have, and from which we are taking a lot of time. As an essentially lazy person myself, I just might not get to it.
So Carebear take your time , KOD Dont write if you don't want to and Zosimus with 4 and 8/9 kids you do understand.(congrats, we can pause our game when we need to since I didn't know ( was that the pseudo KOD rule #2?)
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