The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Fog of War game. GM: UpQuark. Result amended to "No result"

Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby AardvarkArmy » 29 Jun 2013, 06:10

I wish to add... With 19 players, 19 different special powers to adjudicate, 19 separate sets of maps to produce, and 19 Intel reports which require accounting for characteristics of both the view and the viewer, there can be zero doubt that this has been the most complex GM project ever attempted in this site. of course with the literally hundreds (thousands?) of variables at play, we all caught an occasional glitch here and there

in the end, I think the only "lesson" to be learned from this game is that good sportsmanship requires a bow to Upquark with unmitigated respect and unlimited gratitude for a job truly well done

that is all
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ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby Diadem » 29 Jun 2013, 14:16

AardvarkArmy wrote:I would have to say that the complete lack of any prior public notice of this issue is a key concern. Upquark seems to be both very competent and very fair. If I felt I had lost a key unit or territory due to GM error, and it wasn't fixed in a timely manner, I would publicly posted a request to stop the clock until it was resolved

There's no public adjudication, so how can there be public discussion about an adjudication?

What happened a few seasons back, I was fighting Pirates, and I had pushed myself into CRC and Maz. I didn't see anything in SLG and CAM, so I attacked NEM with just one support convinced I would get it with certainty. Turns out there was a pirate unit in SLG, it just wasn't on my map, and as a result I didn't get NEM. I protested this of course, but Upquark argued that me getting NEM wouldn't be fair to pirates, since they did actually have a unit in SLG. I offered a few compromises as well, but he rejected them all and let the adjudication stand as it was. There wasn't much I could do about that. Complaining in public wouldn't have changed anything either, except make everybody in the game aware of the position of my units.

The worst part though was that I didn't just not get NEM, I also lost CRC. It slowed down my conquest of the Pirates by pretty much a full year, and I'm certain the game would have gone quite differently if this hadn't happened. I would have been in a much better position to rescue the Faeries, and the Dwarves would have been forced to put their cards on the table much sooner, making the current 3v1 scenario much less likely.

The current incident is less severe. My map showed both TRO an DAN empty, and I figured I'd easily keep NER. Turns out both were in fact occupied, and I lost both NER and the unit. I most certainly would have defended differently, and probably kept one more centre, if I had known I wasn't going to keep NER. Given the current situation on the board, that's probably not that game-changing, since I already have so many breaks, what's one more. But it's hard to stay motivated when stuff like this happens.

These aren't the only two errors either. I've caught mistakes in the adjudication quite a few times now, usually before the deadline so they could be corrected. But twice now I didn't notice them, with disastrous results, and I can only guess how many I happened that weren't noticed at all.

I don't blame Upquark. This game is horribly complicated. But this kind of game really shouldn't be played again without a very active 2ic, and preferably a 3ic.
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby Diadem » 29 Jun 2013, 14:24

As for what to do now. Upquark privately sent me a message after my little rant in this thread yesterday. Not sure why he only sent it to me, and didn't answer here.

He said he has a busy week, and that he doesn't know how to proceed now since Asudevil is on holidays for three weeks. Which is a good point. By the time he returns I'll be gone for a week. So the game will be on hold for at least a month, regardless of this incident. I guess that means there's absolutely no rush whatsoever with the current deadline, and we can take our time to discuss this.

Upquark said he's tempted to call this over, since the game probably can't survive such a hiatus.

I'm not sure, I feel that wouldn't be quite fair to the current coalition trying their best to whittle a 4-way into a 3-way. However I absolutely feel this whittling hasn't successfully finished yet. As long as I'm alive I can affect the outcome of this game. And while everybody here seems strangely content with a 3-way, I still believe that there is absolutely no fucking way that, in this game, in this situation, a 3-way can be stable if all players are playing to win.

I do absolutely agree though that the first part of the game was much more interesting than this part.
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Draw in Layered, playing Yellow (Russia + Turkey)
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Winner Vain Rats 4, playing France

... but first you must learn how to smile as you kill.
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby AardvarkArmy » 29 Jun 2013, 18:00

Diadem wrote:
There's no public adjudication, so how can there be public discussion about an adjudication?


Very, very simple:

"Public Notice: I believe there is an error in the adjudication of my maps, which may significantly affect me and/or one or more other players. I am requesting a delay in this next deadline until the matter is resolve."

Seems to me it's like a "statute of limitations" - if the matter is not properly dealt with at the time, I am very, very uncomfortable with the idea of pointing back to it with "what if" scenarios...

It is also both a practical and fairness issue to the other players, since any revision would necessarily impact at least 1 other player as well. Shouldn't neighboring players know that whatever negotiations they are engaging, plans they are making and orders they are submitting may be a waste of time? If there is a real possibility that outcomes are going to be rolled back and unit/center counts are going to be changed, everyone should know EARLY in the appeal process, not after the fact.

Diadem wrote: Turns out there was a pirate unit in SLG, it just wasn't on my map, and as a result I didn't get NEM. I protested this of course, but Upquark argued that me getting NEM wouldn't be fair to pirates, since they did actually have a unit in SLG...
...The worst part though was that I didn't just not get NEM, I also lost CRC.


The first part of this seems completely reasonable - if, in reality, he had and used sufficient force to defend the center, then - of course - the center should not be "given" to you. The second part, would have to see more detail as to what units were positioned where to determine if you would have been able to prevent the loss

Again, the key point is - this should have been dealt with at the time, not pointed back years later

Diadem wrote: The current incident is less severe. My map showed both TRO an DAN empty, and I figured I'd easily keep NER. Turns out both were in fact occupied, and I lost both NER and the unit. I most certainly would have defended differently, and probably kept one more centre


The only conceivable change this could have made to outcomes - and it is a loooooong stretch that you would have played it as such - may have let you into HUN while I held NER and ALSO took either STA or AND (along with KOH). While that conceivably could have altered center count, it is very hard to argue that puts you in a better position - to the contrary, it would have opened up a HUGE break in your line.

But, again, the real point once again is - the rest of us played on in good faith, unaware of any issue, because there was no public notice.

Diadem wrote:As for what to do now.


Since I posted the original note yesterday, re the status of the game, Upquark briefly responded to me, and indicated that you had NMR'd out of the game, and hence, the 3-way draw proposal was now approved by all remaining players.

In this, and all other Forum games, I think NMRs are to be taken seriously. I believe I only have one marked against me in this game... and that wasn't even an actual "screw up the flow of the game" type NMR, but was a "technical" NMR given for availing myself the opportunity to change orders during another player's delay of game.

NMR's matter. NMR rules should be enforced. And, one last time, there was no public notice to the rest of us to give us any reason to believe we shouldn't proceed with the Winter 12 deadline.
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DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby asudevil » 29 Jun 2013, 20:40

Man people....I in Africa and replying to this shit...lol

Diadem...you had absolutely zero chance of doing better than you did. Dwarves and I were tight allies sharing just about every map since 01...and once we found that aa was the surviving northern nation, we have been talking to him about a three way since 04.

Honestly, none of us wanted to take you to the end...sorry

Call the 3way...that's where we are
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby asudevil » 29 Jun 2013, 20:40

However, this game was to have TWO second eyes, so if upquark didn't use harpoon and ghost....that's a different issue
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby Diadem » 30 Jun 2013, 02:45

AardvarkArmy wrote:Since I posted the original note yesterday, re the status of the game, Upquark briefly responded to me, and indicated that you had NMR'd out of the game, and hence, the 3-way draw proposal was now approved by all remaining players.

Wait, what?

I did not NMR. Protesting an adjudication is not the same as NMRing. Besides the winter adjudiation hasn't even been posted yet, so technically the winter phase is still ongoing an an NMR is not even possible. And even if I had NMRed, a single winter NMR should not lead to expulsion of the game. And even if it would, I'm pretty sure you can't expel someone from a game without telling him.

So what are you talking about?
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Draw in Layered, playing Yellow (Russia + Turkey)
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Winner Vain Rats 4, playing France

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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby AardvarkArmy » 30 Jun 2013, 03:05

sigh....
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ICE&FIRE.1-Martell/EXCALIBUR.1-Angles/EXCALIBUR.2-Scots/EMERALD-Sno/MOD.4-Italy/SENGOKU.1-OdaNobu/S.AMERICA.1-Peru

DRAWS
1930-China/BattleIsleA-Winterfell/S&S-Turkey/WORLD INFL-Venezuela/LECRAE-Dublin/WWIV.2-Cali/IMPERIAL1861.1-Trky/YNGSTWN.1-Grmny/AMERICAS.2-Mex/AFRICAN.2-S.Arabia
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby Diadem » 30 Jun 2013, 09:58

?
Draw in Diplomacy Stew 2, playing Italy
Winner Four Seasons, playing England
Draw in Layered, playing Yellow (Russia + Turkey)
Winner Shuffle, playing Turkey
Winner Vain Rats 4, playing France

... but first you must learn how to smile as you kill.
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Re: The Haven, current phase: F12R/W12

Postby GhostEcho » 30 Jun 2013, 22:55

asudevil wrote:However, this game was to have TWO second eyes, so if upquark didn't use harpoon and ghost....that's a different issue


The procedure UpQuark had in place was to provide all maps to the assistant GMs on a Google Drive folder. In this case it is largely my fault then that adjudications weren't being double-checked - I haven't checked all orders since Year 2 due to the time involved - but I did expect that I would have been notified if there were issues. Let's just say the GMs were as a whole not entirely up to the task and leave it at that instead of trying to rigorously assign blame.

UpQuark has been on the forum as recently as today, so I'd imagine he's looking at this issue now and attempting to figure out a solution of some sort. However, as I noted the Drive folder with maps hasn't been updated since Year 6. As a stop-gap measure, if all active players would send me their current maps (and maps for the previous turn; in short any recent information you think necessary) I will take a look and determine - bearing in mind special powers, some of which involve fake and/or invisible units! - what errors if any happened on the most recent turn.

I will then - assuming UpQuark is active - double-check with him, after which we collectively can establish a Canon Status of Game, from which several possibilities exist:

    Continue play from the given position
    Agree a draw
    Declare a DIAS
    Declare an unresolvable situation and formally abandon the game with no conclusion

Of those options, with my current state of information, I suspect the third is the most reasonable.
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