Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (full, but reserves needed)

Variant in which random spaces become black holes turn by turn. Introduced by Pedros from a variety of older, similar games and GMd by Pedros. Winner: Radical Pumpkin (Italy)
Enjoyment rating: :D :D :D :)

Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (full, but reserves needed)

Postby Pedros » 15 Aug 2012, 10:07

And to clear up one other rules issue - there was no strong objection to my proposal that fleets on coasts which become landlocked would be destroyed, so I'm putting it into the rules.

If there are any other points which occur to any of you, get them in if possible before we start the auction!
"Sooner or later, one of us will stab the other. But for now we're both better off as allies" (kininvie)
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (sign ups, only one space l

Postby Jegpeg » 15 Aug 2012, 13:24

Pedros wrote:
Janepeg wrote:If a coast disappears I assume the fleet is destroyed even if the province isn't landlocked. For example if GoB is black holed a fleet in StP sc is destroyed. (Or is it teleported to nc).

This one's easier! The black hole is described in the original rules as "like a thick border". This means that StP still has two coasts - the sc is next to Baltic - and the fleet has no problems.


Sorry bad example on my part I'm still trying to get my head around these changes to the map.

Let say that Smyrna is made a black hole. Ankara now has a nc and a sc.
At some later date there is a fleet in Ank nc when the Black Sea becomes the Black hole.

What happens to the fleet?
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (sign ups, only one space l

Postby VGhost » 15 Aug 2012, 16:01

Janepeg wrote:
Pedros wrote:
Janepeg wrote:If a coast disappears I assume the fleet is destroyed even if the province isn't landlocked. For example if GoB is black holed a fleet in StP sc is destroyed. (Or is it teleported to nc).

This one's easier! The black hole is described in the original rules as "like a thick border". This means that StP still has two coasts - the sc is next to Baltic - and the fleet has no problems.


Sorry bad example on my part I'm still trying to get my head around these changes to the map.

Let say that Smyrna is made a black hole. Ankara now has a nc and a sc.
At some later date there is a fleet in Ank nc when the Black Sea becomes the Black hole.

What happens to the fleet?


If I'm reading this correctly, the fleet still has a coast (Eastern Med) and so is fine.

Also: Confirmed.
"When you absolutely don't know what to do any more, then it's time to panic." - Johann van der Wiel
"I'm not panicking, I'm watching you panic. It's more entertaining." - Elli Quinn
"[Diplomacy:] No dice or chance. Just calculated insincerity." - Counter Trap
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (sign ups, only one space l

Postby Jegpeg » 16 Aug 2012, 01:07

GhostEcho wrote:If I'm reading this correctly, the fleet still has a coast (Eastern Med) and so is fine.

Also: Confirmed.


The ambiguity is that while Smyna still has a coast the fleet was not on it. As a fleet can't normally switch coasts logic to me says that the same should apply if the coast it is on suddenly disappears. However reality has little bearing on this game so I will let Pedros decide
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (full, but reserves needed)

Postby Pedros » 16 Aug 2012, 13:00

Ah - good point.

I don't have a strong view on this one. As Janepeg says, neatness, geography, how fleets work ... would say it should be destroyed. But there are games (including some versions of Seismic) where it would switch coasts. I'd have a light preference for switching, and I'll put that as the provisional rule for now, but if a majority of players voted to destroy then I've no problem with that. Again, before we start the auction for any votes there.
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (full, but reserves needed)

Postby Radical Pumpkin » 16 Aug 2012, 14:41

Pedros wrote:Ah - good point.

I don't have a strong view on this one. As Janepeg says, neatness, geography, how fleets work ... would say it should be destroyed. But there are games (including some versions of Seismic) where it would switch coasts. I'd have a light preference for switching, and I'll put that as the provisional rule for now, but if a majority of players voted to destroy then I've no problem with that. Again, before we start the auction for any votes there.


My vote is that if a fleet's coast gets landlocked, it's destroyed. Mostly for the "neatness" reason.

Janepeg wrote:One thing I am not clear on is the splitting of a coast.
The black hole appears after retreats, but a country doesn't need to give the location of their fleet until before the (following?) retreat phase.
For example.
In Fall 01 the French have a fleet in Spa sc. and West Med is made a black whole. Spain now has 3 coasts (I'll call nc, swc and sec).
Am I correct in thinking in the spring he can move it to any of MAO, Por, NAf, Tun, TYS, GOL, or Mar but if it stays put he has to announce whether it is now on swc or sec?


I'm actually confused by this example. I would have thought that Spain still has only two coasts. If the fleet was on sc, then it is able to move to any center adjacent to the Western Med (on the theory that the Black Hole is just a "thick border.")

Final point: is it actually necessary to have players specify a coast when a Black Hole creates multiple coasts from a space that used to have just one? The alternative would be to say that the fleet is always placed on the "old" coast, which (to me) has the advantage of being more intuitive and also has the advantage of dispensing with non-conventional orders from players. So, for example: there is a fleet in Marseille. Gascony is black holed, so that Marseille now has two coasts. Nevertheless, the fleet in Marseille remains on the coast bordering Lyons and cannot "teleport" to the new coast bordering MAO.
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (full, but reserves needed)

Postby Pedros » 16 Aug 2012, 16:45

I didn't look at the Spain example in detail, just answered the query generally. But Pumpkin's right - Spain has only two coasts still; the black hole is a boundary just like, say, the existing boundary line between GoL and WMed.

Pumpkin's last point is a good one. Again, I don't have a strong view about whether the decision is the "old coast" or is down to the player - starting from scratch I'd say it should be the "old coast", but since the rule's written in there it's like the destruction one - I'm happy to change it if it's the view of the majority. I'll count Pumpkin's as a change vote! (And if, somehow, the "old coast" isn't clear-cut then it will definitely be player choice; but so far I haven't managed to see where that could happen.)
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (full, but reserves needed)

Postby APearson » 16 Aug 2012, 18:58

If you still need reserves, then please put me down as one.
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Re: Oh no! Black Hole Diplomacy (full, but reserves needed)

Postby Pedros » 17 Aug 2012, 17:00

Good loserforsale. You're on the list. If somebody doesn't confirm then you'll get a starting spot, otherwise if anybody drops out you get first refusal.
"Sooner or later, one of us will stab the other. But for now we're both better off as allies" (kininvie)
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Time to get started!

Postby Pedros » 17 Aug 2012, 17:09

Kithchener is now back and confirmed, and so is everybody else. The list of players is as in the OP, but as a reminder:-

demmahom
bluestreaksoccer
GhostEcho
Kithchener
BoomstickS
Radical Pumpkin
Janepeg

An interesting mix of old hands and new faces.

No objections to the draft rules I posted during the week, so they stand as they are in the OP. Time now to get your bids in for the blind auction for country allocation. Remember, the rules for the auction are at viewtopic.php?f=253&t=31190#p522465 together with some examples of different ways to use the bids. All bids must be received by 1600 BST (1100 EDT) on Sunday 19 August. Once I have a full set of bids (unless some are marked Provisional) the auction will be over and I will sort it out. Anybody who hasn't submitted a bid by the deadline will be out of the game and loserforsale will get a chance to bid.

And remember - absolutely no discussion of the bids or thoughts about them.

Finally, I'll be moving these two topics to the new sub-Forum in Active, but I'll leave a link here in case you forget!
"Sooner or later, one of us will stab the other. But for now we're both better off as allies" (kininvie)
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