Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 02:53

kimbyrle wrote:
Keirador wrote:MIB's decision to join the scum, once made, is irrevocable, right?

Nooo... The intent is that he can change at will during the night phase.

Ah, so he's definitely not informed of the scum team.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 02:54

So by switching back and forth and targeting strategically, would it be possible for MIB to be mechanically sure of any one player's alignment?
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 02:56

Sorry, the MIB role has been changed since my last reading of the rules and it's less clear to me now what he actually learns and how he can deploy that knowledge.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 09 Feb 2018, 04:18

I'm still trying to figure out a balance of how much info he should be able to get. I've been chatting with Harb about it a bit via PM, since he didn't want me to end up outing any hidden scum roles in thread. He pointed out some ways that MIB could have gotten too much info, so I'm toying with some suggestions he had.

Sigh. :P
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 09 Feb 2018, 06:22

So what Harb pointed out was that in my original version, MIB basically could rack up town clears if townies held The Maze for two nights, and that his role doesn't really require him to make any choices to get information. He suggested having town only allowed to hold The Maze for one night, and scum not able to pass it to each other, which lets MIB rule out scum team combinations by who passes to whom.

The White Hat info vs Black Hat info idea also came out of that discussion, but I'm seeing where that may be too complex. What if instead he simply has to make a choice each night to either learn where The Maze is, or where it's being passed? That would let him learn the latter one night, then verify the next night whether it went through, which gives him useful info but doesn't simply gift it on a platter, and means that he won't always have complete info.

It also embraces the flavor that he's seeking The Maze, rather than just knowing where it is.

Another idea is he could target someone each night. If that player has The Maze, then MIB learns who passed it to them. That could maybe include whether it was redirected? Hmm. This might be better as far as giving him useful data but making him still have to make good choices to get it.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 09:30

Yeah, something similar had occurred to me. If MIB turned Black Hat before revealing it's not a problem, of course, so I got to thinking that there should be some mechanic in place to encourage MIB to make that decision sooner rather than later, and irrevocably. That's what I was thinking when I got back to thread and saw the rules done changed.

I'm worried at this point though that MIB's investigation is so gimped that it's a waste of his time to bother trying to strategize with it. An IR where you might be getting false information is. . . not really an IR.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 09 Feb 2018, 14:00

Well the ideas I tossed out just above wouldn't have him getting false data, just incomplete data.

Spitballing a few things here, what if:

Each night MIB targets someone. If that person has The Maze, he'll learn who passed it to them, and if it was redirected along the way, though he would not learn who the original target was in that case. He will not learn anything about where it's being passed to next, so he can't just lock on and follow it indefinitely.

That's always useful info, and if there was a redirect he'll know that the standard pass rules may not apply.

That gets him the same info as White Hat / Black Hat, so why choose one or the other? I like it as a flavor thing, but mechanically it would be cool if it actually had different functions.

So how about: when he's a Black Hat, IF he finds The Maze, the scum team automatically get a message from him telling them its location. It relies on him finding it, and he can't tell them who had it previously, only where it is.

When he's a White Hat, he has to pick someone, so it's not guaranteed that a townie will receive the message. But in those messages he can tell them any data he's collected up to that point. That potentially gives town some serious info on which players can't be scum together.

It still relies on him making good choices, and makes it so he is a powerful asset to either team, while -- I hope -- not being game-breaking.

Shower thoughts, as you say.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 09 Feb 2018, 14:09

I could also change the rule where scum might hold The Maze two days in a row if there's a random redirect, and just make it that in that instance the other scum is not a legal target. Since MIB is already being limited by his ability to identify the Maze holder to get into, then barriers to its accuracy might be an unnecessary additional wrinkle.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 09 Feb 2018, 14:28

Oooh, or. When he's a White Hat he doesn't pass messages, but if killed he leaves a Last Will detailing all information he's gathered? Doesn't happen if he dies as a Black Hat.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 22:54

kimbyrle wrote:Well the ideas I tossed out just above wouldn't have him getting false data, just incomplete data.

So I meant the idea that MIB could be told about a pass, but not told about a re-direct, so he has a false idea of where the Maze is due to incomplete information. So he never really "knows" anything for sure. It's a further wrinkle that robs his IR of credibility when it's already been fairly gimped from where it used to be.


kim wrote:Each night MIB targets someone. If that person has The Maze, he'll learn who passed it to them, and if it was redirected along the way, though he would not learn who the original target was in that case. He will not learn anything about where it's being passed to next, so he can't just lock on and follow it indefinitely.

That's always useful info, and if there was a redirect he'll know that the standard pass rules may not apply.

I think this works mechanically. But I do think it's perhaps a pretty weak role, if I understand the rules correctly. Unless the town agrees on a reveal policy for somehow gets around the Black Hats' block, and right now I don't see how they could, the MIB is taking shots in the dark at who to target. This isn't like investigating for alignment, or even blocking, where an astute player could limit the pool of legitimate targets for the IR down to just a few. Townies probably want to pass to who they perceive as strong townies, but there are also scum passes in play and, potentially, straight-up random passes. And even strong townies can disagree on where the strongest townreads are. So it's not all that likely that the MIB is going to get more than a couple of successful targets all game, right?

And then if he does guess correctly, his takeaway is. . . these two people can't both be scum together. That's not even a dipole, because it could be scum/town, town/scum, or town/town. Tossing it around in my braincase, you'd need A LOT of these "not both scum" pairings to generate actionable data that's going to be worth spending attention on this instead of just behavioral reads or even wagonomics. And you're probably just gonna get like two this way. (I guess if you're lucky enough to see shadowface pass to somebody, and then shadowface flips scum, you have a mechanical townclear, but that seems like an edge case.)

Am I missing something obvious?

kim wrote:That gets him the same info as White Hat / Black Hat, so why choose one or the other? I like it as a flavor thing, but mechanically it would be cool if it actually had different functions.

So how about: when he's a Black Hat, IF he finds The Maze, the scum team automatically get a message from him telling them its location. It relies on him finding it, and he can't tell them who had it previously, only where it is.

So if he targets correctly, the Black Hats know not to shoot at the protected target? Again, juice doesn't seem all that worth the squeeze. They already had a really good chance of not shooting at the protected target, at least in the early to mid game.

kim wrote:When he's a White Hat, he has to pick someone, so it's not guaranteed that a townie will receive the message. But in those messages he can tell them any data he's collected up to that point. That potentially gives town some serious info on which players can't be scum together.

Can you go through the expected value on how much data he'd realistically have to pass on at various points in the game? Off the top of my dome I'd think by Day 3 he'd be fairly lucky to have one pair that can't be scum together.
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