Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 22:54

kimbyrle wrote:I could also change the rule where scum might hold The Maze two days in a row if there's a random redirect, and just make it that in that instance the other scum is not a legal target. Since MIB is already being limited by his ability to identify the Maze holder to get into, then barriers to its accuracy might be an unnecessary additional wrinkle.

I agree.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 22:56

kimbyrle wrote:Oooh, or. When he's a White Hat he doesn't pass messages, but if killed he leaves a Last Will detailing all information he's gathered? Doesn't happen if he dies as a Black Hat.

Yeah, I like that change too, but it doesn't address my concern that he might just not have any information to pass on.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 09 Feb 2018, 23:03

If you wanted to strengthen the Man in Black, a couple changes suggest themselves to me right away. Not sure how balanced they are yet, and I already have some self-criticism, but here goes:

As a White Hat, you target a player. You are informed if the player has just been passed the Maze, OR if the player has themselves just passed the Maze, and you are informed who they received it from or passed it to. Flavor-wise, he's pretty adept at tracking the Maze, not just finding it. Mechanically, that should double his chances of finding non-scum pairs, right?

As a Black Hat, you target a player. If that Player has the Maze. . . you kill them. So an unblockable kill.

Alternate Black Hat ability: If that player has the Maze, you take the Maze without killing that player (only way you can get the Maze).
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 09 Feb 2018, 23:51

Keirador wrote:If you wanted to strengthen the Man in Black, a couple changes suggest themselves to me right away. Not sure how balanced they are yet, and I already have some self-criticism, but here goes:

As a White Hat, you target a player. You are informed if the player has just been passed the Maze, OR if the player has themselves just passed the Maze, and you are informed who they received it from or passed it to. Flavor-wise, he's pretty adept at tracking the Maze, not just finding it. Mechanically, that should double his chances of finding non-scum pairs, right?

As a Black Hat, you target a player. If that Player has the Maze. . . you kill them. So an unblockable kill.

Alternate Black Hat ability: If that player has the Maze, you take the Maze without killing that player (only way you can get the Maze).

First: your input here has been awesome. This is a process of just kicking shit back and forth, with one person seeing stuff the other might not have.

Second: Ooh. Huh. Yeah, let me think about these. Take out the message-passing thing altogether and give him some real mechanical teeth.

With the first idea for Black Hat MIB, if he hits The Maze and scum don't, that's two kills. Now, it's guaranteed not to happen N1 since he starts out White Hat. If he gets it N2 following a ML, the game goes to 2/1/4, with the possibility of The Maze in scum hands. That's damn powerful. If I did that, I might have to guarantee it goes to a townie after a MIB kill. Granted, he only has a 1:8 shot to hit it N2 (should I let him choose a target after the NK? That makes it 1:7), but it has the possibility of swinging the game hard.

Although... since I do still have him counting as a White Hat for parity purposes, that's functionally more like 2/5. Still, another ML followed by a second lucky shot is a N3 scum victory. Maybe it could be a one-time ability? Maybe both things: kill the Maze holder and snatch The Maze? But only once per game.

Then as the White Hat, he'd have that ability to track it and leave a detailed Last Will and Testament. If he hits it N1, doesn't run up against a redirect, manages to track it every night, and gets lynched right before LYLO having taken the longest possible path to town victory, I suppose it has the possibility to decide the game for town, but that's a huge string of luck and is still dependent on him having gathered enough data for them to rule out both townies as the other scum's partner.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 10 Feb 2018, 00:30

kimbyrle wrote:
Keirador wrote:If you wanted to strengthen the Man in Black, a couple changes suggest themselves to me right away. Not sure how balanced they are yet, and I already have some self-criticism, but here goes:

As a White Hat, you target a player. You are informed if the player has just been passed the Maze, OR if the player has themselves just passed the Maze, and you are informed who they received it from or passed it to. Flavor-wise, he's pretty adept at tracking the Maze, not just finding it. Mechanically, that should double his chances of finding non-scum pairs, right?

As a Black Hat, you target a player. If that Player has the Maze. . . you kill them. So an unblockable kill.

Alternate Black Hat ability: If that player has the Maze, you take the Maze without killing that player (only way you can get the Maze).

First: your input here has been awesome. This is a process of just kicking shit back and forth, with one person seeing stuff the other might not have.

Second: Ooh. Huh. Yeah, let me think about these. Take out the message-passing thing altogether and give him some real mechanical teeth.

With the first idea for Black Hat MIB, if he hits The Maze and scum don't, that's two kills. Now, it's guaranteed not to happen N1 since he starts out White Hat. If he gets it N2 following a ML, the game goes to 2/1/4, with the possibility of The Maze in scum hands. That's damn powerful. If I did that, I might have to guarantee it goes to a townie after a MIB kill. Granted, he only has a 1:8 shot to hit it N2 (should I let him choose a target after the NK? That makes it 1:7), but it has the possibility of swinging the game hard.

Although... since I do still have him counting as a White Hat for parity purposes, that's functionally more like 2/5. Still, another ML followed by a second lucky shot is a N3 scum victory. Maybe it could be a one-time ability? Maybe both things: kill the Maze holder and snatch The Maze? But only once per game.

Then as the White Hat, he'd have that ability to track it and leave a detailed Last Will and Testament. If he hits it N1, doesn't run up against a redirect, manages to track it every night, and gets lynched right before LYLO having taken the longest possible path to town victory, I suppose it has the possibility to decide the game for town, but that's a huge string of luck and is still dependent on him having gathered enough data for them to rule out both townies as the other scum's partner.

Also, if I did this I think I wouldn't want him to be able to find it, then flip scum and kill the person it was being passed to. I'd need to tinker with the order of operations.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 10 Feb 2018, 00:36

Or I just make it an irrevocable N0 choice for him.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby condude1 » 10 Feb 2018, 01:48

kimbyrle wrote:Or I just make it an irrevocable N0 choice for him.

This is better IMO. I've mentioned how much I hate gag orders in the past, and it's for good reason. It creates an artificial line separating a good play from an illegal one. Any situation where the gag order kicks in means that the best option the player has is to do their best to circumvent it - an easy enough task ("IF I happened to be MIB, which of course I'm absolutely, totally not..." follows the gag order but practically reveals your alignment, among many other options). It's too artificial a boundary. Much better is something that makes this option either impossible (no chance to change), or terrible (mafia get a one-shot attempted MIB kill that only works if they successfully identify him, and MIB only wins if he survives, as one example of a hard counter to MIB claims).

The trick with a lot of rulesets is to make the players have the same goal as the GM - making the mechanics work. Look at what I've done with Trapped - I want the players to explore, so rather than forcing the town to move every day, I make it bad for them if they aren't mobile. Now the town's best play is aligned with the play that makes the mechanics function the way they're supposed to.

Look at Push/pull as a bad example. I had a fun ruleset... that unfortunately functions against the town. So they circumvented it fairly easily. And just ended up doing a lot of math. It turned into freaking Homework Mafia. No one wants to play Homework Mafia. Except for Keirador, who seems to delight from finding ways to make the town do a lot of boring homeworky stuff to get an advantage ;) .
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby Keirador » 10 Feb 2018, 03:21

kim, a few notes on your last.

Regarding the potential swinginess of a Black Hat MIB successfully shooting a townie holding the Maze. . . this is counter-balanced by the potential of a Black Hat MIB shooting a scum that holds the Maze. Less likely, but also more impactful. It's definitely swingy, but swingy isn't always bad. Less swingy either way though would just be the Black Hat gaining the Maze if he targets the player holding the Maze. Immunity from both lynch and NK is arguably much more valuable to the third party than it is to anybody from just one fixed alignment, so it's still a powerful incentive. The kill is definitely higher impact and, in my opinion, a little more interesting.

I hadn't thought of my White Hat MIB ability making it possible for the MIB to just track the Maze night after night after they got one correct targeting, and yeah, that's probably a problem. Maybe it randomizes to another townie if White Hat MIB correctly targets? That creates the potential for a limited number of town-clears, though if I'm gaming this through correctly these town-clears would require either incredible luck or a reveal scheme that puts targets on those town-clears backs, so that seems powerful but not game-breakingly so. Or in other words, as good an incentive for the MIB to stay aligned with the town as the potential vig-kill or Maze steal offers for the MIB to align with the scum.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 10 Feb 2018, 05:56

Keir, I'm not quite following you on the potential reveal scheme that creates town clears in the White Hat scenario. Can you explain that a little more?

Tossing out another idea: what if White Hat MIB can redirect the night kill to the Maze holder if he finds it, and learns who the original target was? That gives him a definitive townclear IF he finds it. And town can't just say who they're going to pass to, because scum will redirect it.
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Re: Westworld Mafia (input welcome)

Postby kimpossible » 10 Feb 2018, 06:12

That would kinda be a doctor with a twist, so the MIB player would basically be choosing between scum alignment and a vig kill predicated on guessing correctly, or town-aligned pseudo-doctor. That seems like they might be equally interesting options?
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