London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Game for 7 set in riots in London over one night. Unusual rules! Devised by Andy Mansfield, introduced and GMd by Pedros. Winner: thewysecat (Nurses)

And another Goers question!

Postby Pedros » 05 Dec 2011, 07:21

Now that the Royals have reached the bridges I began thinking in more detail about the southern centres, and realised there is yet another unanswered question which relates to the Goers' invisibility.

What happens when and if the Goers get to the south, where every space is a neutral supply centre?

This hasn't cropped up before, because in the north every space is either controlled by a player or is hidden - either way, the Goers are revealed when they get there. But not so in the south, and the rules don't say they should be revealed when entering a neutral space.

But what happens come the Build phase? Firstly, should I be listing their stats along with everybody else's (particularly their SC count and builds due) (The build, if any, will be revealed because the rule says so, but that will be in the north)? Should I be colouring their spaces, so revealing their whereabouts?

It's looking to me as though the Goers have quite a strong advantage arising from their invisibility already, so my inclination would be to colour their space at the build phase and reveal the unit in there, but not their position before that time.

Views?
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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby WarSmith » 05 Dec 2011, 08:29

I don't really see the need for colouring - if no fighting has occurred, its up to other players to figure out where they are by previous intel, and woudl seem very contrary to the sentiment of the original rules in my mind at least 'its their ability to mingle etc' - like in fog of war - why do we other players deserve any intel at all about spaces that we haven't been to (or bounced out of). Revealing build numbers is fine though...
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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby Palin » 05 Dec 2011, 09:54

I agree with WarSmith. Don't reveal where they are unless there is a clash with another unit but keep the SC count posted as normal.
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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby Pedros » 05 Dec 2011, 11:33

Others may disagree, but at the moment the feeling's clear. One other point - if we don't colour, presumably we colour other people's. If another player's unit enters a territory owned by the Goers, do I then colour the territory for the Goers (until the Builds)? (ie is this some sort of revealing conflict)?
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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby Kian » 05 Dec 2011, 12:12

I think it best that I keep out of this one - it's hard to be dispassionate when it directly affects me....
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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby Pedros » 05 Dec 2011, 12:28

If you don't argue your corner, who else will? Except that this time they are doing!
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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby gordoncomstock » 05 Dec 2011, 15:31

I diasgree with the current line of thought on this one.

The initial rules seem to make clear that "If a unit occupies and gains an SC in the Fall its presence will be known."

I have reproduced in in full below more for my own benefit than anyone elses.

"A movement or hold/support order which succeeds will not be reported, and the unit will not appear on the map, unless it enters an SC (hidden or not). Since there will be no question about who found it, the unit will be displayed but the order which took it there will not be reported. If a unit occupies and gains an SC in the Fall its presence will be known, so again it will be shown but its move will not be reported. The colour of the SC will be altered as usual after the Fall (retreat if appropriate) Bounces will be fully reported and the unit''s position revealed."

Have I missed a rules discussion where the above rule was modified? Because otherwise it seems fairly clear cut.
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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby thewysecat » 05 Dec 2011, 15:32

These were the rules as published at game start with GM interpretation in his italics

viewtopic.php?f=353&t=23353

"A. Theatre-Goers. Due to the cancellation of all performances by wild cat electrical strikes, disgruntled customers are now out for revenge. They have supply centres in Covent Garden, Leicester Square, Shaftsbury Avenue and Russell Square and start the game with a unit in each of them. Due to their ability to blend in with the background, the Theatre-goers orders are only reported when they are in conflict with the other players or their supply centres. All retreats and adjustments are reported in full. Specifically, A movement or hold/support order which succeeds will not be reported, and the unit will not appear on the map, unless it enters an SC (hidden or not). Since there will be no question about who found it, the unit will be displayed but the order which took it there will not be reported. If a unit occupies and gains an SC in the Fall its presence will be known, so again it will be shown but its move will not be reported. The colour of the SC will be altered as usual after the Fall (retreat if appropriate) Bounces will be fully reported and the unit''s position revealed."

I think it is well known that I argued for a very liberal interpretation of the T-goers' powers when I joined the game and I believe that game play and questions like this are only illustrating that a more 'generous' interpretation of the T-goers' powers was the right way to go at game start.

That said, however, as far as I am concerned this question has already been ruled on at game start by the GM - for all the players to see - so I am not sure why we are being asked about a change at this point of the game.

Pedros clearly wrote that: "...the unit will not appear on the map, unless it enters an SC..........., the unit will be displayed but the order which took it there will not be reported. If a unit occupies and gains an SC in the Fall its presence will be known,...The colour of the SC will be altered as usual after the Fall..."

There doesn't seem to be any ambiguity there. The GM has ruled at game start that a T-goer unit will be displayed when it enters a SC and the colour altered in the Fall. The idea that this only meant Northern SCs and that now there is a new question because we are talking about southern SCs is ridiculous. By what reasonable interpretation was I meant to read that initial ruling and think it only meant SCs north of the river and that south of the river is a whole other question now we have reached that point in the game?

Any distinction between southern and northern SCs in this way is completely arbitrary. It is just made up. The difference between southern and northern SCs for game purposes is clear and defined within the rules. It has nothing to do with the T-goers' powers. To say that the T-goers won't be shown when entering a southern SC is in my view altering a previous GM ruling - something which we were promised would not happen. Stuff like "oh well I only meant Northern SCs when I wrote that" is not going to cut it. The GM ruled what he ruled and all players are entitled to rely upon it for the rest of the game.

I argued at game start that such a move by the T-goers' should not be shown on the map - the same would have been true when they found Portland place in my version of their powers, but a different ruling was made by the GM and Portland Place was displayed. That ruling should be stuck to as the playing conditions for all players were set at game start. I see no logic to a position that says south of the river is somehow different suddenly.

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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby thewysecat » 05 Dec 2011, 15:33

Ok, while I was typing Gordon was chipping in - good sense! :)

Anyway, I have a new query that is worth some air time - the police just retreated to a battled area - Victoria Embankment

This to me is far more significant - since when can the police ignore a basic rule of diplomacy?

This does need talking about...

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Re: London nights: Map, rules and discussion

Postby WarSmith » 06 Dec 2011, 08:55

Had missed the initial ruling somehow. OK with sticking at it.
Thanks for spotting the retreat by the way!
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