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Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 21:51
by Wobzter
Well yeah, but I forgot the exact dates. I''m gone the first two weeks of November, that's why I ask :p

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 12 Aug 2018, 22:07
by varkenskop
I am back in The Netherlands 21th of August so maybe in the week from 22 to 29

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 02:14
by Wobzter

So I made some changes based on what you have written.
The map is not final - I will fancify it when it's a good map.

So, I actually made two versions.
The Limburg version, in which the 6th player is Limburg and Hasselt is a new SC (with Hilversum gone).
The Utrecht version, in which the 6th player is still Utrecht - but Maastricht has a neutral army to defend it - requiring two units to attack. The army will get destroyed when dislodged. This is meant to nerf Brabant.

The River/Dyke system works as follows.
A dyke is region which can be traversed by fleets and occupied by armies. [REGION A]-[DYKE]-[REGION B] would take an army two turns to reach Region B, starting from region A. This is also true for fleet, as they would have to enter a body of water first. If a fleet wants to cross a dyke, this is only possible if in the previous turn there was no army on the dyke which put a HOLD action (may include a support while holding). So an army at a dyke for a full turn will block fleets crossing.

A river is a region which can be traversed by armies and occupied by fleet. A fleet may do the same movements as armies; moving from region to region, along the coast or bridges.. On top of that, a fleet may enter the river. Once in the river it may issue a HOLD action (may include a support while holding), to block all bridges from being used. On top of that, entering the river gives more movement options for the fleet. Notice how the Waddenzee is regarded as a river, as fleet may block passage to/from the Waddeneilanden.

Both a fleet in a river and an army on a dyke may specify that they allow passage - but this must be done on an individual basis.

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 10:59
by varkenskop
Both maps got problems and I dislike the bridge system.

Limburg map

The only problem is the dividing of the SC’s. There should be less SC’s in the middle: Lelystad and Almere should be united and the three provinces south of Almere should also be one. Down the south in the middle of the three neutral No SC zones should be created an neutral SC. In the east the Noord-Oostpolder should be conected with Heerenveen. I think Noord Holland should be one region (except Den Helder). The land area between the two rivers should be connected and de-SC’d. There should be more bridges in the middle, but I really like less bridges.

Utrecht map

There should also be an army in Venlo with the strenght of 2. The southeast 4 provinces should be deleted and all my previous chances except Noord-Holland.

Bridge/Dyke system
Bridges: there should be a new phase between orders and retreat. In the phase bridge controllers can choose to let armies through or not.
Dykes: for armies it are normal connections and they are impassible for fleets.

Fleet Leeuwarden.

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 21:10
by Wobzter
So I went with many of your suggestions.
The one I couldn't accept is that dykes are impassible.
While understandable that military fleet cannot just jump over the dykes, it would basically put a huge impassible zone in the center and reduce some of the utility of fleet.
Instead I looked where the major aquavias were and bassed passable movements according to that.

To highlight.
Armies can move from Leeuwarden to West-Friesland.
Armies can move from Almere to West-Friesland.
Fleet can pass the aquavias in West-Friesland, Almere (Lelystad) and Veluwe (Elburg), this means making a move similar to North Sea - Denmark - Baltic or Black Sea - Constantinople - Aegean.

Here it would be IJsselmeer - West-Friesland - Waddenzee, for example.
I kept the fleet at Hoorn as there is it's an actual naval city.
I agree that the bridge-phase is a good improvement on what I suggested.

Further map changed did the following:
- Put Leuven on the map, which will draw Limburg, Vlaanderen and Brabant. While a Vlaanderen / Limburg alliance used to be guaranteed, now they will have to settle on who gets Leuven.

- Decreased the amount of regions in the center. With Utrecht gone, this now brings Zuid-Holland and Twente much closer (3 spaces from Rotterdam to Deventer).
- Added Den Helder to stop fleet from going along the North Holland coast TOO fast.
- Put Lelystad and Almere together, and added Noord-Oostpolder to Heerenveen. This will also bring Friesland closer to Twente and Zuid-Holland.

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 13 Aug 2018, 23:27
by Wobzter
By the way, I did not include bridges yet. But they are at obvious locations. The black lines indicate river regions.

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 14 Aug 2018, 18:39
by varkenskop
Zuid Holland can take Den Helder in 1901

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 00:24
by Wobzter
Correct. But Den Helder is not a SC. What I find more weird is that Rotterdam can be in Arnhem in 2 turns. I might change that.

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 15 Aug 2018, 19:00
by Wobzter
Another update:


- Fleet Rotterdam and Army Den Haag are exchanged. This way the army in Rotterdam can put pressure on Brabant in the beginning.
- Connected Achterhoek with Enschede. Not only does this remove the weird situation where Enschede is only connected to two other provinces, it also engages Twente much more with Limburg with Brabant.
- Put Eindhoven in the correct position and added an empty region to give more options to the fleet in Venlo.
- Added two extra neutral empty provinces to have more space for the armies (especially in Maastricht) to move to and to avoid Eindhoven to have access to two enemy SC's.
- Split up Heerenveen from the Noord-Oostpolder to increase the utility of dykes.
- Removed Haarlem as a SC; this way the fleet in Den Haag is more engaged offensively and it removes the overload of SC's.
- Split up the Dordrecht thin line to increase the utility of the river.

Current rulesets of rivers and bridges:
* Armies can go from province to province, provided there is a bridge and that the bridge controller accepts your movement.
* Armies can provide support, without the request of a bridge controller.
* Bridge controllers are fleet which end their turn in the river.
* Fleet movement is either of the following two options (still undecided):
(A) -- Fleet can only move along the coast or into the water. They cannot follow bridges. (this would require two turns; one to enter the water, the second to go to the opposite shore).
(B) -- Fleet CAN cross bridges AND enter the water. Crossing bridges does require permission from the bridge controller (which may have been bounced out if the fleet went into the water instead).

What are your thoughts on this?
If you feel like it's kinda okay I'll make a slightly nicer map with the bridges well-drawn.

Re: Dutch Speaking 6-player Variant

PostPosted: 18 Aug 2018, 02:21
by Greenflame
I'm Greenflame here, willing to talk on here or Reddit.