Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby diplomat42 » 27 Apr 2012, 14:33

Hey @Pedros can we include my reasons as well?

Thanks.
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby asudevil » 27 Apr 2012, 14:54

My games are all DIAS, but there still are some weak draws where people just say, "screw it, we all win".

But I only will run DIAS games so that the littler powers can try and force someone in the alliance to crack.
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby VGhost » 27 Apr 2012, 15:48

I support DIAS on the boring and legalistic grounds that those are the rules of the game - other "victory conditions" (which is to say "draw conditions") technically ought to be considered variants.

Technically.

Most of the time, though, I think the spirit of the rule is upheld. Most of the time I think a non-DIAS draw is essentially equivalent to a resignation in chess. The game isn't formally over, but the writing on the wall is clear.

But this brings us back the rules of the game again. If a draw is not a victory, then acceding to a draw you are not a part of is weak - and the players angling for a small draw are not playing the game to the hilt. So I think if we're establishing a principle, the principle has to be "Solo or DIAS".

Practically, my own position has been to take each game on its own. As a rule of thumb, I do not accept draws which do not include myself - but in certain cases I have. As a rule of thumb, I prefer draws which include all players - but I've accepted (and proposed) draws not including one power or another - as a negotiating tool, or as a petty form of revenge (or both).

I guess, to summarize, since Diplomacy is malleable by negotiation to begin with, I tend to see any result, to your own advantage, which you can get to stick as legitimate for that particular game, whether or not its strictly legal.
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby Pedros » 27 Apr 2012, 15:57

diplomat42 wrote:Hey @Pedros can we include my reasons as well?

Thanks.

Sorry diplomat - I tried to catch them all, but the mechanism is stunningly cumbersome and I missed that one. Now done.
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby Malevolence » 27 Apr 2012, 16:23

in theory- i think DIAS is the best way to play. If you ever ask me while im playing a game though- ill tell you its awful, cause itll always weaken the stronger players- because they have to either spend tiem and energy (units) wiping out the little guys, or sharing with them- this leads to betetr games, becasue when theres 2-3 super powers, who finishes off the little guy but leaves themselves undefended?


It makes the game better- but ive been angry at it playing more than once :)
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby Pedros » 27 Apr 2012, 21:16

Actually, I think Malevolence's point is the best argument I've heard yet in favour of DIAS. The stronger players should have to deal with the weak ones. Why should they get an easy ride just because they and their allies have managed to smash the small guys?
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby drrnwrstlr » 28 Apr 2012, 22:46

I think it kind of depends on the game. In a large game, such as WWIV and Haven, it would be very, very hard to take out that many weaker players to get the top two-three players in a draw. In this case, I think it should be non-DIAS. However, in a small game, such as the Sail Ho game I am GMing, there are only three other players to deal with. In this case, players should be forced to deal with the weaker players, so it should be DIAS.
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby BigBert » 01 May 2012, 19:09

Regardless of whether one would like DIAS or non-DIAS, what would be the reason for having different rules for Forum Games than for main-site games? Perhaps the really big games need some consideration when it comes to draw rules, but for the other "normal-sized" variants I don't really see a reason for deviating from the main site rules. Where non-Dias is the default. I think that in general the way Forum Games are played should be as close as possible to the way main site games are played, except obviously for the variant rules themselves.

Alternatively, why not let players vote for a DIAS option before the game actually starts off?
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby VGhost » 01 May 2012, 20:16

BigBert wrote:...I don't really see a reason for deviating from the main site rules. Where non-Dias is the default. I think that in general the way Forum Games are played should be as close as possible to the way main site games are played, except obviously for the variant rules themselves.

Alternatively, why not let players vote for a DIAS option before the game actually starts off?


To answer the first question: DIAS at least as an optional rule is good because a) it's what the rulebook actually says and b) there are those (like myself) who would prefer it if DIAS was the site default. Which sort of gets to your second question: I don't think Pedros (or any of us) would say you can't run a game which is non-DIAS or non-non-DIAS, or whatever, but trying to reach an agreement on the default state of forum games is the thing.
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Re: Draws in Forum Games - DIAS or not?

Postby Pedros » 03 May 2012, 18:28

We do have a set of default rules, which allow any draw or concession proposal. GMs can change them in their House Rules, but I haven't seen anybody do so yet.
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