Climate Change

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Re: Climate Change

Postby V » 28 Aug 2019, 16:39

The O wrote:Let's rewind a bit here.
There are 3 potential truths about climate change (oh heck.. I'm going to go ahead and call it global warming):

1) Global warming is not happening
2) Global warming is happening but it is a natural geological process
3) Global warming is happening and it is primarily driven by human activity.

If humans significantly changing their activities, there is really no harm to any of those 3 scenarios. Why not move away from carbon based energy? We have the technological knowledge to support our energy needs with wind, solar, and tidal power. We can stop fracking, drilling and spilling, and blowing off the tops of mountains. Even if there is no global warming changes, what would be the argument to not do this? I haven't gotten a good response to the downside of changing these activities. We can deforest, drill through the bottom of the oceans, and pave the world, but why would we not want to try to mitigate these activities? Look... I sort of understand if you are a CEO of a large petroleum company not wanting to make these changes. But most of us that don't have skin in that game should be on board with going to cleaner low carbon producing energy sources.


I couldn’t give an argument why this “shouldn’t” happen, but I’ll give a reason why it won’t happen. Humans are naturally competitive & we build that into our systems of government in many ways, including the concept of competing nations.
Achievement of any environmental protection measures we so happily debate, requires international consensus followed by commitment which never happens & is unenforceable.
A relatively poor state (e.g.Venezuela) which has little capital for investment, low technological capability & is oil rich, is never going to stop drilling. Political animosity, rivalry & jealousy would sabotage any debate on the subject.
If political units were larger such as creation of groups (e.g. EU) there is some chance that individual nations would not be so committed to their self interests (over all other concerns) but as we have recently seen this can also lead to abuse of power & subsequent political disputes making consensus impossible again.

To add to this mix powerful multinational companies will forever attempt divide & rule tactics to further their own interests & gain allies amongst those politicians where mutually beneficial activities are possible. This isn’t an intellectual debate situation where we justify one course of action & require the Petrochemical CEO to justify his, in some polemic argument. This situation is more about many billion humans having the freedom & opportunity to do what suits them best, irrespective of the common good, & they will.
We can debate what could be done to mitigate environmental damage ad nauseum, but it’s still gonna happen simply because most humans are dumb & don’t care what damage they do to the world around them.
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Re: Climate Change

Postby schocker » 28 Aug 2019, 18:25

I agree. Like the Paris accord if you read a summary of it you will find that almost all third world nations actually commit nothing and China the biggest polluter offers nothing for the next decade and according to Beto that is too late for us.

Somebody in the thread talked about sea-level rise. At a 1/8" a year according to the Feds, that rise is going to take many decades before it is a problem for most seaside cities.
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Re: Climate Change

Postby The O » 30 Aug 2019, 18:07

Thanks shocker... so just do nothing because others are not doing anything. You are helpful as always.

V - thanks for the intelligent well thought out response. I wanted to send one back, but wanted some time to put it together. I will try this weekend.

Also, I am unsure about where you got the 1/8 inches per year number, but NASA disagrees with that:

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/2680/new-study-finds-sea-level-rise-accelerating/
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Re: Climate Change

Postby Strategus » 30 Aug 2019, 18:18

Like I said before, if we agree it is not going to get stopped, we are pissing about while it is happening. We need to plan for what we are going to do when the temp rises, when the sea levels rise, etc, etc.
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Re: Climate Change

Postby The O » 30 Aug 2019, 18:39

Wait... you started a thread to discuss climate change and now that it is being discussed you are saying that nothing can be done about it so why discuss it?

This is why I left this thread years ago.

V- I'd still like to respond to you, but perhaps I see why this forum is no longer active.
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Re: Climate Change

Postby beowulf7 » 30 Aug 2019, 18:42

Hi O

nice to see you around. :)

I miss the big hitters - even the ones I loathed :)

Playing whack-a-mole with trolls just doesn't cut it but maybe we should spend a few months trying to revive things
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Re: Climate Change

Postby Strategus » 30 Aug 2019, 18:55

beowulf7 wrote:Hi O

nice to see you around. :)

I miss the big hitters - even the ones I loathed :)

Playing whack-a-mole with trolls just doesn't cut it but maybe we should spend a few months trying to revive things

To whom do you refer?
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Re: Climate Change

Postby The O » 30 Aug 2019, 19:27

Hi Beowulf

Cheers to you. I was never a big hitter... just a long time hitter. I don't recall ever having any issues with you (unless I stabbed you at some point).
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Re: Climate Change

Postby V » 30 Aug 2019, 20:48

The O wrote:Wait... you started a thread to discuss climate change and now that it is being discussed you are saying that nothing can be done about it so why discuss it?

This is why I left this thread years ago.

V- I'd still like to respond to you, but perhaps I see why this forum is no longer active.


Look forward to hearing your thoughts. As previously mentioned I seriously believe in environmental protection to the extent I talk less & do as much as I can to achieve it. Living in Costa Rica makes it easier & a major reason why I moved here & won’t leave. I’ve met thousands who talk a good game & do nothing.

We chose a place for our home where neither air conditioning or heating are required, year round. We drive as little as possible & live only 5 miles from the town that provides all our needs. We almost never fly anywhere. We seek locally grown produce which is at least 90% of what we eat & only occasionally eat meat. We only have a small piece of land but in 7 years it’s already a miniature forest, planting 50+ indigenous trees that one day will be spectacular & produce delicious local fruits.

Costa Rica has consensus that environmental protection is more important than money amongst politicians, business people, land owners & populace. It’s excellent education will hopefully ensure that doesn’t change. The achievements in renewable energy & reforestation over the last 20 years are fantastic. It can be done, but only if moderate population puts limited strain on available resources & people want it to happen. Despite being a Catholic nation Costa Rica implemented an excellent contraception programme a long time ago.

All that will influence nothing on a global scale however. Many countries already have vast unnecessary populations that contribute little other than consumption, aggravating the problem. Population control was briefly touched on in this thread, but given that it’s almost certainly impossible it’s not worth discussion. Like most aspects of environmental protection the solutions are technologically available & the insurmountable problem is humanity.

Perversely I’m not too concerned about “climate change” in comparison to the many other environmental problems we create, wiping out forests, eliminating species, polluting rivers & oceans & just generally creating shit places to live where once there were idyllic paradises. You never know, getting torrential rain somewhere we haven’t had it before, might provide opportunity as well as soil erosion difficulties. We are very adaptable, unlike many of the creatures we destroy.

I have no great hope that the trend to generally destroy everything we touch will be reversed. I cannot do anything but try & live by example for my family, so that environmental protection becomes part of their lexicon (amongst hopefully other moral issues it’s important to impart to the next generation). I’d love to dream that humanity will change course, but in my time on this planet they’ve demonstrated nothing to suggest they won’t continue their greedy, selfish ways that have brought us where we are.
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Re: Climate Change

Postby Strategus » 30 Aug 2019, 21:03

The O wrote:Wait... you started a thread to discuss climate change and now that it is being discussed you are saying that nothing can be done about it so why discuss it?

This is why I left this thread years ago.

V- I'd still like to respond to you, but perhaps I see why this forum is no longer active.

That was my whole point of starting the thread. Not that there is no point in discussing it. But is it true there is nothing we can do, and what should we do instead of being muppets.
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