Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Moderators: Zoomzip, Telleo, bkbkbk, condude1, sjg11

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby Nanook » 28 Mar 2021, 10:48

Tbf to strat i don't think he intentionally tanks his scum game--i recall him putting in effort and trying in the sjg game i subbed into that we lost d1, at least.

Some people have polarized metas, and that is definitely frustrating to play with when you're mafia, but it isn't *usually* an intentional thing, it's more lack of ability or knowledge of how to play scum. The solution to that isn't "let's run them out and shame them!" It's encouragement and offers of assistance (and uh maybe less town sided games, "I don't know what I'm doing...oh fuck this game is already mech solved" is a vicious cycle that probably deflates scum performance some amount).


In a case like dwilts where he has a pattern of subbing out or being replaced for inactivity in scum games more than town games, yeah, that's an issue that should be addressed. Especially as dwilts is fully capable of effort as scum.
Platinum Classicist
(h/t lordelindel)

Admin
User avatar
Nanook
 
Posts: 11173
Joined: 19 Jun 2014, 19:52
Location: Florida
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: (1209)
All-game rating: (1413)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby Strategus » 28 Mar 2021, 10:59

UpsideDownChuck wrote:Would be curious to hear what percentage of the Kim townread was based specifically on the Miller thing, and what percentage was based holistically off her play all day. I got the sense the latter was stronger than the former but I could certainly be wrong
Grew stronger as the day went on. General town activity.
The Devil makes work for idle forces

Better to have fought and lost, than never to have fought at all
Actual Platinum Classicist
I did WDC 2017

UK f2f Champion 2019
Just say "NO!" To carebears and kittens
User avatar
Strategus
 
Posts: 4321
Joined: 30 May 2015, 14:30
Location: England
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1580
All-game rating: 1754
Timezone: GMT

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby Strategus » 28 Mar 2021, 11:10

Keirador wrote:
Harb wrote:On the other side, easy to pick out patterns of behavior (it's really hard not to see Strat as a town lock once you do even a cursory review of his previous play) makes it hard to drum up issues with others.

I want to pick at this, even if it isn't fun or happy.

Everybody needs to actually try as scum. It should not be allowed to sign up for game after game, and then take an interest if you're town but just completely bail if you're scum.

We have a few frequent-flier players that can easily townclear themselves just by continuing to try, because if they were scum they'd have just fucked off. This is not a tenable state of affairs. If I declared formally that I didn't like playing scum and would surrender immediately every time I drew scum, I imagine GMs wouldn't allow me to play their games. Some players seem to be pursuing that tactic without declaring it formally, and I don't think it's cool.

I'm most specifically talking about Strat and dwilts, but I think the general idea that "I drew scum I don't fucking care anymore" extends way beyond those two players.

I love playing scum, and this is out of order. I always try my hardest.
Last edited by Strategus on 28 Mar 2021, 12:55, edited 1 time in total.
The Devil makes work for idle forces

Better to have fought and lost, than never to have fought at all
Actual Platinum Classicist
I did WDC 2017

UK f2f Champion 2019
Just say "NO!" To carebears and kittens
User avatar
Strategus
 
Posts: 4321
Joined: 30 May 2015, 14:30
Location: England
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1580
All-game rating: 1754
Timezone: GMT

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby Strategus » 28 Mar 2021, 11:18

Nanook wrote:Tbf to strat i don't think he intentionally tanks his scum game--i recall him putting in effort and trying in the sjg game i subbed into that we lost d1, at least.

Some people have polarized metas, and that is definitely frustrating to play with when you're mafia, but it isn't *usually* an intentional thing, it's more lack of ability or knowledge of how to play scum. The solution to that isn't "let's run them out and shame them!" It's encouragement and offers of assistance (and uh maybe less town sided games, "I don't know what I'm doing...oh fuck this game is already mech solved" is a vicious cycle that probably deflates scum performance some amount).


In a case like dwilts where he has a pattern of subbing out or being replaced for inactivity in scum games more than town games, yeah, that's an issue that should be addressed. Especially as dwilts is fully capable of effort as scum.

You are all forgetting when Lecrae and I demolished town when we were scum. I can do it, but Nook is right, my meta is an issue. When I first started playing I kept getting miskd D1, so eventually I changed my style to be more "consilliatory" as Kim put it. That was also supposed to stop me getting miskilled. That got us the win as scum, but now the meta has switched. So I have to keep monitoring my own meta, and when I gat scum again, will have to work to that. In truth, I think I have to play in both styles, every game, so that my meta is NAI.
The Devil makes work for idle forces

Better to have fought and lost, than never to have fought at all
Actual Platinum Classicist
I did WDC 2017

UK f2f Champion 2019
Just say "NO!" To carebears and kittens
User avatar
Strategus
 
Posts: 4321
Joined: 30 May 2015, 14:30
Location: England
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1580
All-game rating: 1754
Timezone: GMT

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby Blackswimmer » 28 Mar 2021, 11:22

UpsideDownChuck wrote:Would be curious to hear what percentage of the Kim townread was based specifically on the Miller thing, and what percentage was based holistically off her play all day. I got the sense the latter was stronger than the former but I could certainly be wrong

Latter was definitely stronger than the former. I just made a snap read, and would have been prepared to jettison it if later evidence pointed to her being scum.
Ugluk wrote:Blackswimmer: Sinking in the deep end.

I'll be back
User avatar
Blackswimmer
 
Posts: 2688
Joined: 08 Jan 2013, 12:32
Location: Wales
Class: Diplomat
All-game rating: (1000)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby Blackswimmer » 28 Mar 2021, 11:26

Keirador wrote:Everybody needs to actually try as scum. It should not be allowed to sign up for game after game, and then take an interest if you're town but just completely bail if you're scum.

We have a few frequent-flier players that can easily townclear themselves just by continuing to try, because if they were scum they'd have just fucked off. This is not a tenable state of affairs. If I declared formally that I didn't like playing scum and would surrender immediately every time I drew scum, I imagine GMs wouldn't allow me to play their games. Some players seem to be pursuing that tactic without declaring it formally, and I don't think it's cool.

I'm most specifically talking about Strat and dwilts, but I think the general idea that "I drew scum I don't fucking care anymore" extends way beyond those two players.

I don't think we have many players who subscribe to the "I don't care, gonna bow out" philosophy on any level.

It's just that playing scum is hard, and we get much less practice at it than playing town, so it's harder to improve. So, yeah, as has been discussed ad nauseum, there's a case that playdip scum are worse than town on average. But I don't think it's because people don't care.
Ugluk wrote:Blackswimmer: Sinking in the deep end.

I'll be back
User avatar
Blackswimmer
 
Posts: 2688
Joined: 08 Jan 2013, 12:32
Location: Wales
Class: Diplomat
All-game rating: (1000)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby GregorV » 28 Mar 2021, 16:15

Keirador wrote:
Harb wrote:On the other side, easy to pick out patterns of behavior (it's really hard not to see Strat as a town lock once you do even a cursory review of his previous play) makes it hard to drum up issues with others.

I want to pick at this, even if it isn't fun or happy.

Everybody needs to actually try as scum. It should not be allowed to sign up for game after game, and then take an interest if you're town but just completely bail if you're scum.


To hopefully provide a counter-point - I would love to be scum, and would probably raise my activity level for it. I just haven't gotten it very much at all.
What is Mafia? It is a never ending time sink where seemingly trivial inconsequential passing comments are often portrayed as cast iron proof of guilt. Run away backs rather whilst you still can. For me, there is no hope.

Keirador wrote:Greg was right
User avatar
GregorV
Premium Member
 
Posts: 2728
Joined: 02 Jun 2015, 17:12
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1065)
All-game rating: (1042)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby Justinrs2 » 28 Mar 2021, 16:17

Is there anything that can be done to improve scum play? There are some great scum players on here, Keirador (as much as he hates it), Telleo, Sjg, Kim, and others. Is there like a "scum boot camp" that could be done (if that makes any sense)?

The question is, do we need something like that, or will the problem be solved on its own through playing more scum sided/neutral setups, and this stretch of games have happened to work out to be fairly town sided without anyone intending them to?
Holder of the Talisman of Greater Scumminess :twisted:

"To understand the man you have to know what was happening in the world when he was twenty"- Napoleon Bonaparte

The world when I was 20
User avatar
Justinrs2
 
Posts: 1623
Joined: 24 Feb 2018, 00:13
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1321
All-game rating: 1195
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby kimpossible » 28 Mar 2021, 16:33

Justinrs2 wrote:Is there anything that can be done to improve scum play? There are some great scum players on here, Keirador (as much as he hates it), Telleo, Sjg, Kim, and others. Is there like a "scum boot camp" that could be done (if that makes any sense)?

The question is, do we need something like that, or will the problem be solved on its own through playing more scum sided/neutral setups, and this stretch of games have happened to work out to be fairly town sided without anyone intending them to?

Fuck it’s weird to see anyone refer to me as being great at scum. I certainly do not think of myself that way.

There was talk after MCV of starting up a series of 7-2 mountainous games for this very purpose, of getting back to more neutral setups. I have an additional thought of getting a scum mentor volunteer for games, someone who would read the thread and have access to scum chat, but not actually be a player. Someone to help the scum team think about strategy, while the actual players still have to go and play the game. A scum coach. The obvious downside is it would mean asking someone to commit their time without actually playing the game, but maybe that could be a welcome change of pace for some of our players anyway.
Former Bearer of the Aura of Greater Towniness.
Temporary Custodian Resentful Keeper of the Talisman of Greater Scumminess. :evil: (now gifted to its rightful owner)
Owner of the highly coveted and very prestigious First to Notice Award.
User avatar
kimpossible
 
Posts: 9113
Joined: 28 Jun 2017, 20:54
Location: Arlington, VA
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1058)
All-game rating: (1063)
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Infinite Jest Mafia - ONAN Win!

Postby sjg11 » 28 Mar 2021, 17:18

kimpossible wrote:
Justinrs2 wrote:Is there anything that can be done to improve scum play? There are some great scum players on here, Keirador (as much as he hates it), Telleo, Sjg, Kim, and others. Is there like a "scum boot camp" that could be done (if that makes any sense)?

The question is, do we need something like that, or will the problem be solved on its own through playing more scum sided/neutral setups, and this stretch of games have happened to work out to be fairly town sided without anyone intending them to?

Fuck it’s weird to see anyone refer to me as being great at scum. I certainly do not think of myself that way.

There was talk after MCV of starting up a series of 7-2 mountainous games for this very purpose, of getting back to more neutral setups. I have an additional thought of getting a scum mentor volunteer for games, someone who would read the thread and have access to scum chat, but not actually be a player. Someone to help the scum team think about strategy, while the actual players still have to go and play the game. A scum coach. The obvious downside is it would mean asking someone to commit their time without actually playing the game, but maybe that could be a welcome change of pace for some of our players anyway.

I could potentially be willing to do this in a few months... but now I want to squeeze as many regular games in as possible while I still have the time to commit to them.
One of the people in charge of the Mafia forum.
Telleo wrote:The mafia forum, to them,
Sir SJG's known as a gem,
He writes a good game,
and runs it the same,
Oh what a perfect GM!

Come on Arsenal!
User avatar
sjg11
 
Posts: 18331
Joined: 24 Dec 2010, 15:30
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (908)
All-game rating: (899)
Timezone: GMT

PreviousNext

Return to AARs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests