DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Moderators: Telleo, bkbkbk, condude1, sjg11, Zoomzip

DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby Telleo » 25 Jan 2019, 01:48

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The Pandorica Opens!

...but who will claim the prize within? Can the Alliance secure the Pandorica's ancient resting place, or will the nefarious Doctor foil them once again?

Rules/Signups

Roster:
1. Sjg11
2. Zoomzip
3. Harb
4. nanooktheeskimo
5. kimpossible
6. UpsideDownChuck
7. Shadowface
8. Fatmo
9. Aeschines
10. Sinnybee Firestorm Niakan
11. Asudevil
12. RedSun

Reserves:
1. JoeHoya06
2. Firestorm94
3. Niakan

Game Map:
Day One:
Checkpoint #1
End of Day - RedSun is lynched, Firestorm replaces Sinnybee.
Day Two:
Day Start - kimpossible is killed in the night.
Checkpoint #2
Checkpoint #3
End of Day - Nanooktheeskimo is lynched.
Day Three:
Day Start - Zoomzip is killed in the night.
Checkpoint #4
Checkpoint #5
End of Day - Aeschines is lynched.
Day Four:
Day Start - Sjg11 is killed in the night.
Announcement - Niakan replaces Firestorm.

ISO Links:
The GM
Sjg11
Zoomzip
Harb
nanooktheeskimo
kimpossible
UpsideDownChuck
Shadowface
Fatmo
Aeschines
Sinnybee/Firestorm94/Niakan

ASUdevil
RedSun

Reserves:
JoeHoya06

This game is currently in D4. D4 will end on Sunday, February 24, 2019 at 10:00 AM PST.
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby asudevil » 04 Feb 2019, 03:03

So I only get 20 posts. That should be fun. I think we need to discuss if we even SHOULD edit posts. I want to say we shouldn't. I know it's part of the game to allow for adjustments, but I really don't think we should be editing posts. Also, I think this format encourages early voting. So lets get votes out early wen we can. Finally, I think we should probably NOT vote in our 19th post so that we can edit IN a vote (I know I just said don't edit...but this would be the exception) in case something crazy happens.

Im really looking forward to this game, it's been a while since I played. This format is going to REALLY throw me since normally I just post stream of consciousness, but fuck it...it's Doctor Who so I had to play.

EDIT before the first page is even done--So apparently, people want to know why I think this. Honestly, it's because it's going to be a PAIN in the ass to re-read and know WHEN stuff was edited and what prompted it. And then going back to re-read the edits with response. Plus it allows for people to be like "I was just going to edit that later"...make them keep it up front. Plus it makes it hard on our GM.
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby kimpossible » 04 Feb 2019, 03:10

Unless you can give me a really good reason not to use the editing abilities this game gives us, I'm going to. But I agree we should be voting early. This format is going to make it hard to generate reads based on discussion.

Which is part of why I want to use the editing privileges, so that we can fit more interaction into the game. So explain why you don't want to use the game mechanic.
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby Nanook » 04 Feb 2019, 03:36

I think edits are generally pro-town. Only 100 words can be added and a record of what was changed is still there, so...it basically just gives us a little more room to tack on an extra thought without using a whole post for it.

Vote early. Vote often. Anyone that holds a vote past their fifth post is scum-claiming imo. There just isn’t time to hold votes in this format.

SJG is a dishonorable trickster, prove me wrong.

Reveals are bad. Don’t do them unless you’re about to die.



Edit:
Sorry guys, am super busy and don’t want to waste a post, will catch up on this tonight. Edited at 5pmish EST.
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby shadowface » 04 Feb 2019, 03:38

No one is going to believe me but I'm actually town this game :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :D :D :D :D :D

Image

Oops did I just post a gif of someone flossing? Ew.

First thing: limited posts means we need to change our behaviour. I have a couple scum strategies that I speculated about before the game, that I think as townies, we should work against. One is that scum might try to waste their posts. Like, get caught up in some fight and then not be able to scumhunt or reply more because you ran out. You can easily burn through posts like that. Like that's what I'd do as scum here. So I think townies need to be careful with their posts, such that there's a high standard for posting in the town in terms of size and how much content is in each post (ie. combining as many comments as possible into each post). Moreover, I absolutely will scumread people if they're posting one liners (queue some sassy townie wasting a post to reply to this with one word :P)

I also think there's something to be said for post timing as being very relevant. When I read the description for this game, I thought the optimal strategy as scum would be to post towards the end of the day. That way, if you said something wrong, no one could really drill you on it that day because they might be out of posts. Yet you can pick on other people easily and they might not even have posts to defending themselves. Might be the kind of trend to look for.

I haven't read the rules since about a week ago, but what I thought then is that we, to maximize our posting capability, should use editing on every post. We can basically do twice as many posts each if we edit each one before moving on.
Also I thought this is going to make it extremely annoying to read the thread, and a hassle to implement. So that's the argument I see against it, I don't know if I want to have the thread sorted like that.

Asu, I don't see why you think editing posts is a bad thing? I believe the rules said the way the post was edited has to be clearly marked, so I see no risk in it.
Like, your argument:
So I only get 20 posts. That should be fun. I think we need to discuss if we even SHOULD edit posts. I want to say we shouldn't. I know it's part of the game to allow for adjustments, but I really don't think we should be editing posts.

Doesn't contain any reasoning.
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby UpsideDownChuck » 04 Feb 2019, 03:40

Having read the rules it seems like the optimal way to play is vanilla since there’s no way to ‘coordinate’ night actions that isn’t outweighed by hurting Infosec. I also don’t really think there’s a need for formalizing or otherwise telling people how to navigate the post limit. I have some theories about how scum might approach it different from town, but I don’t see any benefit to sharing that (and am also not sure how accurate they are).

The question then becomes how do we get discussion started if it’s not mechanical stuff? I have a question I’d like people to answer: “What were your takeaways from the last game you played and how, if at all, are you approaching this game differently?” A couple reasons I’ve selected this. 1) I feel like AAR participation has declined and we don’t fully unpack all the mistakes/missed opportunities (and successes/converted opportunities) and I think that’s a shame 2) if I feel like someone is playing differently from how they usually play as town, I want them on record about what they’ve consciously changed so I can take that into context. 3) I think fear of reason 2 could potentially cause scum to answer differently, kicking off potentially alignment indicative discussion

My own answer: last game I saw a lot of value in establishing a set of town reads and then lynching outside it, vs trying to zero in on exactly one wolf read. I realized I should be more confident in pursuing null space (Firestorm) reads even if I don’t have a single ‘issue’ to hang them over. And I saw that I have a weakness for scumreading people who I think are playing the ‘wrong way’, specifically referring to my misread of Conq in deadchat. Pursuant to all that I’m going to try and be more aware of that bias, and be more aggressive in pursuing null space people this game. Not a lot of ‘sweeping’ changes to my game but some small tweaks.
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby kimpossible » 04 Feb 2019, 06:59

EDITED
Post Two


Ok, so I had been waiting for a reply from Telleo clarifying the rules about editing posts, but since I can only add 100 words in an edit anyway, I might as well just go ahead and write a new post. What I’m waiting to find out is whether we need to wait for an edit to be approved after submitting it to her, or if the submission of intent to edit is sufficient, and we can then go ahead and make the proposed edit without an official approval. I suppose I’ll just edit this post once I have an answer. :P

Answer: we don’t have to wait for approval.

So, I like Chuck’s approach here. I knew that generating discussion was going to be the challenge for this game, but hadn’t really figured out how to address it. In looking back on my last few games, I find that it’s usually real-time or close to real-time interaction that produces the most readable moments for me (both in terms of other people being able to read me, and me being able to read other people), and I know that’s going to be severely curtailed by the format of this game.

The main reason I haven’t participated much in the last couple AARs is that there’s been some play in the last few games I participated in that I really disliked, and complaining about it doesn’t change it, so that makes it seem kinda pointless to discuss afterward. I’ve felt like my own play has been pretty strong, my reads have been decent, and it’s mostly been the aforementioned gameplay I disliked that caused some misvotes (see RedSun and UFO in Christmas Mafia, and Agnimandur in Fable).

So as far as changes to my play, I don’t think it would be major, but I’m going to try to listen more to my own reads, because the ones I’ve really felt strongly about in the last few games have turned out to be right. Which means I’m answering similarly to Chuck on the part where I should be more confident about pursuing the “null space” reads, because my strong town reads were good.

I know a handful of folks in this game haven’t played with me in a while, so I maybe should put up the warning flag that I’ve been a little short-tempered and combative in my last couple games... partially because of RL stuff, but partially that may just be how I play Mafia now, I dunno. Point is, if I seem like an angrier, less patient Kim, it’s not necessarily alignment-indicative.

I’m townleaning on Chuck for proposing a thing to generate discussion, and I can’t entirely explain why but I get a townie vibe from Shadow just on tone. It just seems like there’s a genuine interest there in looking for how to approach the game In a town-positive way.

Asudevil, because I’m on board with voting early in this game and I think his proposal to ignore the editing mechanic while simultaneously complaining that he would struggle with the posting limit rings false.

Responding here to questions about my opening post and my vote. Harb, I was aware of the economy issue, but was trying to balance it with needing to start somewhere, and “WTF ASU?” seemed like a good place. I don’t usually do a lot of pregame strategizing, and hadn’t thought about “What to talk about” ahead of time.

Shadow, what changed was deciding “Yeah, this is voteworthy, considering”, and since I was writing a new post anyway I did it here instead of editing the first one.
Last edited by kimpossible on 04 Feb 2019, 08:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby Harb » 04 Feb 2019, 07:10

Harb, Post 1

Like Asu, it's been a while and I'm pretty stoked about the format because it's cool to play with all (is that sjg over there?) most of you again and this is about the only way it could happen for me.

I'd love to see everyone keeping track of their post counts post by post. Harder to make mistakes, harder for the "I got wrapped up in it all!" scum that SF is talking about to say they just forgot about the post limit.

Everyone seems to be in general agreement that posts are our prized commodity. Cool. Even some discussion about changing behavior. Double cool. I'd like to make things more specific than "combining as many comments as possible" though. I think where things might get away from us is really need to work on DIVERSE interaction. It's all well and good to combine your 14 ways Asu's comments about editing weren't great into one post, but we we need to be talking to more people at a time. I know I have a tendency to think I can go back to address things that pique my interest latter, but that thing I'm looking at now is CRITICAL and everything else can take a back seat. We don't have that luxury. We need people talking and on record (blah blah, platitude platitude) but we haven't at all trained ourselves to make people do that in a short post format. Talk to ALL the people.

VEVO - Remember back when I said I was stoked about this format? I lied. I hate VEVO. It sure seems like if ever there was a setup where it's just about mandatory though, this is it. So ALSO important is going to be vote quality. VEVO is important because it gives us an idea of where thoughts are at, right? That means people gotta MEAN their votes if we're supposed to be tracking what they're thinking from real early stages. Or alternatively, be real clear when their vote is for humorous purposes only. Cause it's sure not like anyone's ever spent days trying to mislynch someone over whether they were joking or not.

+1 on the comments @asu asking for explanation on why editing posts is something we shouldn't do.

@SF - Based on what you're saying you're going to take issue with in terms of posting (lack of content), what was it about Asu's position that drew comment where there was nothing for Kim or Nanook? Again +1 to Asu needs to get on the ball and say a bit more about that position, but what about Kim and Nanook's posts contributed beyond what you might expect from a particularly sassy one liner (see Harb's zinger for sjg above).

Consider that also a question for Kim and Nanook. What were your thoughts about how to approach this game prior to start? Were you thinking about posting economy or just excited to get things rolling when you were making your first posts?

UpsideDownChuck wrote:I also don’t really think there’s a need for formalizing or otherwise telling people how to navigate the post limit.

I'm not sure what this means. Are you talking about expressing our expectations regarding posting quality / behavior, or "Don't vote in your 19th"?

Any thoughts on what's gone down so far?

I'm coming into this game hoping to be able to lead more. My last real interactions around mafia were actually the Dune Dead Thread. I don't have a lot of confidence in my scum reads as town, so I tend to put them out for public consideration / approval rather than push them at people. It was put to me that that may not be a particularly effective way to get people to listen to me or follow my lead. I'd like to try and change that and push a more methodical approach and thinking. Only if that's cool with you guys though. Does that sound okay?

I don't have a serious vote right now. So, happy early birthday to sjg.

(PPE : I see Kim coming out with the longer stuff, but I'm for bed.)
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby shadowface » 04 Feb 2019, 07:46

ScumTownface Post 2:

So I was going to edit a post to add new stuff, but then I realized that the rules say not to do exactly what I was planning to do, which is write an entirely new post under the guise of an edit. I hate subjective rules like that but I guess I'll just play in spirit of that to avoid drama/modkills/angry people. Also I have a lot to say now so no point.

@UDC:
UpsideDownChuck wrote:Having read the rules it seems like the optimal way to play is vanilla since there’s no way to ‘coordinate’ night actions that isn’t outweighed by hurting Infosec. I also don’t really think there’s a need for formalizing or otherwise telling people how to navigate the post limit. I have some theories about how scum might approach it different from town, but I don’t see any benefit to sharing that (and am also not sure how accurate they are).

The question then becomes how do we get discussion started if it’s not mechanical stuff? I have a question I’d like people to answer: “What were your takeaways from the last game you played and how, if at all, are you approaching this game differently?”

Sure, good question. I haven't played town in a long time, so really my mindset going into this game is very different than it was last game or the one before that because I actually want to game solve. I kind of plan to townspew because I feel like I can actually do that this game, and especially with limited posts people need to be able to read me. I also want to try to make sure there's a productive town atmosphere - since I last played as town I've learned IRL that facilitating a good atmosphere actually makes teams function way more effectively. So I guess that will influence my play.

I have a question for you - why didn't you comment on anyone else's posts, or relate to their content, in your opening?

@Harb:

Harb wrote:@SF - Based on what you're saying you're going to take issue with in terms of posting (lack of content), what was it about Asu's position that drew comment where there was nothing for Kim or Nanook? Again +1 to Asu needs to get on the ball and say a bit more about that position, but what about Kim and Nanook's posts contributed beyond what you might expect from a particularly sassy one liner (see Harb's zinger for sjg above).

Let's see. In his first post, and the first post of the game, asu was suggesting a standard for the town that we should ignore a potentially valuable mechanic, with a justification that looked like a reason but was actually just a repeat of his opinion. Whereas kim was posting to basically echo the sentiment I was considering myself. I also checked her opening to the last game here to compare tone, and it was quite similar to her opening there, so that was a reason to not be suspicious. Nanook's opening also matches how he always opens, which is with a random vote and some sort of joking/people don't get it's a joke kind of justification. It often gets him in trouble but he does it as both factions, so his opening was not distinctive. And once again, in terms of content, the sentiment of echoing that edits can be useful is something I agree with, so it would draw no suspicion from me.

Harb wrote:VEVO - Remember back when I said I was stoked about this format? I lied. I hate VEVO. It sure seems like if ever there was a setup where it's just about mandatory though, this is it. So ALSO important is going to be vote quality. VEVO is important because it gives us an idea of where thoughts are at, right? That means people gotta MEAN their votes if we're supposed to be tracking what they're thinking from real early stages. Or alternatively, be real clear when their vote is for humorous purposes only. Cause it's sure not like anyone's ever spent days trying to mislynch someone over whether they were joking or not.


Harb wrote:I don't have a serious vote right now. So, happy early birthday to sjg.


Oh, why bother? Is a non serious vote on sjg helping the town at all?

I don't mean to be stuck up about this, everyone has their style. But your vote seems a bit inconsistent with the spirit of your earlier comment, so I don't really know why you'd bother to go there?

@kim:
kimpossible wrote:Asudevil, because I’m on board with voting early in this game and I think his proposal to ignore the editing mechanic while simultaneously complaining that he would struggle with the posting limit rings false.

Your first post was after asu's first (and only so far) post. You also said in that post that you were on board with voting early. So why wait until now to vote? Did anything change? Also, do you think your voting habits are any different when you're town or scum?
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Re: DW Mafia I: SILENCE WILL FALL

Postby UpsideDownChuck » 04 Feb 2019, 10:11

Replies

Harb:

Harb wrote:
UDC wrote:I also don’t really think there’s a need for formalizing or otherwise telling people how to navigate the post limit.

I'm not sure what this means. Are you talking about expressing our expectations regarding posting quality / behavior, or "Don't vote in your 19th"?

Any thoughts on what's gone down so far?


Definitely feel that specific plans, a la don't vote in your 19th or editing related plans are not necessary, and I'd rather see how people navigate that on their own. As far as more general expectations, I think I'd also rather see people do that on their own too, but I don't feel as strongly there. I think it goes without saying that making 20 very silly, very short posts would be poorly received. If issues around the post limit come up, and people want to say some variant of 'hey please don't do that it's counter-productive' or better yet 'hey I think it's wolfy that you are posting in this manner' then let's deal with it as it happens. I don't think getting out in front of hypothetical posting situations is productive or necessary.

Yes, to the second question, which will hopefully be elaborated over the rest of the post.

Shadowfriend:

I have a question for you - why didn't you comment on anyone else's posts, or relate to their content, in your opening?


You and nanook posted while I was writing my post. I was phone posting from a Super Bowl party and didn't feel like attempting a PPE to incorporate what you two wrote, and I didn't see much noteworthy in kim/asu's first posts. I indirectly responded to asu's suggestion by saying we shouldn't do any kind of formal rules around posting/editing.

Outgoing mail:

shadowface

shafowface wrote:I also think there's something to be said for post timing as being very relevant. When I read the description for this game, I thought the optimal strategy as scum would be to post towards the end of the day. That way, if you said something wrong, no one could really drill you on it that day because they might be out of posts. Yet you can pick on other people easily and they might not even have posts to defending themselves. Might be the kind of trend to look for.


Doesn't announcing this diminish the possibility that scum will do it? If you actually think this is very relevant, it seems weird to share it right away and then write 'might be the kind of trend to look for'.

shadowface wrote: Whereas kim was posting to basically echo the sentiment I was considering myself. I also checked her opening to the last game here to compare tone, and it was quite similar to her opening there, so that was a reason to not be suspicious

(Fixed Quote Tag)

What prompted you to do the underlined?

asu

What was your understanding of the rules surrounding editing, at the time that you made your first post?

Harb

I'll plus one Shadow's observation that your emphasis on 'serious votes early' (which i agree with) seems slightly at odds with a joke vote on sjg11. I know you give the caveat that one should be real clear when they're making a joke vote, but then why make one at all?


Some general thoughts:

So far very few posts, I'm actually worried that people will be too stingy with their posts in the early going and it will lead to stagnation, rather than people hitting the limit. So far I'd guess it's more of an issue of people not seeing the game opened yet than people consciously posting less.

I appreciate people answering my question. I don't see anything super alignment indicative in the answer's I've gotten so far, but maybe they'll be useful down the road.

Addendum: On further reflection, I think SF's answer that she intends to 'townspew' is a little interesting. My first thought is that it seems slightly wolfy to announce that you're going to be focused on how you're perceived. It's a good cover for accusations of 'SF seems more concerned with seeming townie than actually solving'. My second thought though is that wolves wouldn't want to set the expectation early that they'd be posting in a villagery way, they'd want the gamespace of doing just enough to get by to be open to them. I'm not sure how strongly I feel about either point, but I figured I'd mention it as long as I'm fixing the quote tag

I also initially thought Kim's reply that she was worried about not being townread because she couldn't post in real time was perhaps slightly wolfy, since she's setting up an alibi for not having her townie aura, but then I realized that that made sense given her playstyle.
Last edited by UpsideDownChuck on 04 Feb 2019, 20:58, edited 1 time in total.
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