Mafia CLXX: Internal Affairs 2.0 Game over (Town wins!)

[ExiledAtHome]

Appeal to Emotion

[sjg11]

Alright so, for me to be scum and Chuck to be town:

1. I bussed PB yesterday. A correct lynch yesterday was really important to a town win in this game. Chuck had to vote PB in order to survive as he was in the lead at that point. For Chuck the option that maximised the chances of winning the game... was to lynch PB and go for it tomorrow. I was in a different position. I could easily have "conveniently disappeared" for the rest of EOD and watched townChuck get lynched and tried to get smith or kim killed either today or tomorrow.
2. If I'm scum... I killed off my chances of winning the game to increase my chances of surviving today. That's not how I play as scum. Particularly not as lone scum, where I've pulled off some pretty sensational victories in my time (read games like Matrix or X-Men or AHarlequin's Star Wars Episode IV game for examples of that). Point is I have a history of actually being fairly successful when making desperate plays with a low chance of success in the end game. If I'm scum... I take the long shot every time here and hope I can nudge a kim lynch over the line.

That being said though, I'm not exactly gonna be crying if I get killed today and you lynch Chuck tomorrow. I just... well I think it's clearly Chuck here when you examine the evidence.

[sjg11]

Oh and...

3. Kim's guilty result. Kim's unlikely to be a Random Cop so is probably just Sane which leaves Chuck as Mafia...

[kimpossible]

Oh and...

3. Kim's guilty result. Kim's unlikely to be a Random Cop so is probably just Sane which leaves Chuck as Mafia...

That too.

[UpsideDownChuck]

Sjg is the last wolf and should also be punished for his AtE play earlier in the game. Lynch him my dudes.

sjg11

Yeah, I meant to talk about this.

At EOD, you said you disagreed with me and others that we should view things like Sjg's emotional outburst through any sort of alignment lens, as you felt it can throw the game out of balance for someone to pull an emotional gambit to get townread. I wanted to follow up on that, because I'm not saying that it was fine that Sjg had his outburst, and that I'm OK with people doing so for town cred, but for someone to do so, and be scum, they are turning in any and all currency they have with these players in future games, and it seems a really short-sighted tactic for a scum player to pull who intends to continue playing on this site. So, in this circumstance, I can't help but have a townlean coming out of that.

But, as mhsmith notes, you also said you have no problem with anything Sjg did, as town or scum, and now on your red vote, you and us to punish him for his AtE play?

Which is it?

My view is that people should play to their wincon in the current game. Electing not to do something that might help you win in exchange for currency in future games is against the spirit of the rules. I don’t fault people necessarily for townrreading this stuff, I do it too, because I realize most people don’t share my mindset, but I think it would make for a better atmosphere if everyone cashed in their “AtE currency” and then the value of doing that went away since it would no longer be indicative

[UpsideDownChuck]

@chuck: four questions for you

1) do you agree fully with the mech stuff saying that it MUST be sjg or you, I.e. yiu fully and completely disclaim any possible abilot6 to make it to endgame? (If not please explain why it’s wrong)
2) why does sjg not shoot harb (who’s a coon flip to guilty him) and instead shoot k (who then MUST ba paranoid and therefore useless as a cop)?
3) why does sjg eliminate his only possible path to victory by saying he got a red check on you and therefore cleared Kim?
4) eod3 you said sjg’s stuff wasn’t out of line, now you say he should be punished for it. What changed?

1) Yes
2-4) Does it really matter?

[ExiledAtHome]

Oh and...

3. Kim's guilty result. Kim's unlikely to be a Random Cop so is probably just Sane which leaves Chuck as Mafia...

That too.

That's sort of the most compelling point for me. The odds of Kim being Random are pretty slim, so a Sane role means it's definitely UDC as final remaining scum.

Mhsmith, you have a mechanical clear on Kim, right?

[ExiledAtHome]

Yeah, for Kim to be scum, UDC and Sjg are both Random, which leaves Nook and ASU both as Insane or Paranoid, they couldn't be Sane, which means we don't have enough S/N, and have too many I/P.

So, Kim is cleared, which means I can accept her dirty IR on UDC, which means that she's either Random (unlikely) or Sane (much more likely).

Sorry, Chuck. UDC

[kimpossible]

Looks very likely that any random cops we had were killed in the first two days. Hmmm... That makes Dwiltse make complete sense as a NK, doesn't it? He could only have been insane or random. If insane, he could out more scum; if random, removing him left a plausible random space for Chuck to occupy.

[ExiledAtHome]

Sjg is the last wolf and should also be punished for his AtE play earlier in the game. Lynch him my dudes.

sjg11

Yeah, I meant to talk about this.

At EOD, you said you disagreed with me and others that we should view things like Sjg's emotional outburst through any sort of alignment lens, as you felt it can throw the game out of balance for someone to pull an emotional gambit to get townread. I wanted to follow up on that, because I'm not saying that it was fine that Sjg had his outburst, and that I'm OK with people doing so for town cred, but for someone to do so, and be scum, they are turning in any and all currency they have with these players in future games, and it seems a really short-sighted tactic for a scum player to pull who intends to continue playing on this site. So, in this circumstance, I can't help but have a townlean coming out of that.

But, as mhsmith notes, you also said you have no problem with anything Sjg did, as town or scum, and now on your red vote, you and us to punish him for his AtE play?

Which is it?

My view is that people should play to their wincon in the current game. Electing not to do something that might help you win in exchange for currency in future games is against the spirit of the rules. I don’t fault people necessarily for townrreading this stuff, I do it too, because I realize most people don’t share my mindset, but I think it would make for a better atmosphere if everyone cashed in their “AtE currency” and then the value of doing that went away since it would no longer be indicative

Playing for your wincon I don't think should include manipulating out-of-game meta to the point where you're accusing people of treating you unfairly and threatening to rage quit and / or flip out on people in the AAR. If you genuinely believe you're being treated unfairly, then it's at least understandable to get that emotional, and thus I can't help but town read you, but if you're intentionally distorting this to make people feel bad for you, and you're really just scum, I don't think that tactic is really within the spirit of the game, and I'm going to generally not accept that a high caliber player with integrity would do that.

This is not to say that there isn't a grey area on this matter, but generally speaking, I see I distinction between trying to misrepresent meta to try to frame someone (acceptable) and trying to misrepresent meta to accuse players of treating you unfairly and faking emotional rage (not acceptable). It's not unacceptable because I think that scum players refraining from doing it are just trying to preserve future currency with other players, it's unacceptable because it's based not on in-game mechanical / behavioral trickery (fair play), but rather on trying to manipulate people's sense of decency.