Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - D4

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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - N0

Postby Nanook » 14 Jan 2018, 03:04

Zoomzip wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:It's been a bit since we played. Are you back to your vote early vote often ways? I seem to recall you were trying a new approach, but perhaps it didn't stick.


Not voting early sucked. I ended up forgetting to vote at all in D1. I want to vote. Trying to decide between you and Parabellum right now.

You are at least somewhat engaging and poking at me with a stick. Parabellum is just toodling around going "Sure, he probably would have checked with his scum chums, but it is probably NAI." Kim is potentially making a read on me. SJG is NAI at this point.

Hmmmmm...

Parabellum

Ok, to engage with this on a non-silly level for a sec. What makes you classify my engagement with you as somewhat? Does it seem like I'm skirting the issue, or is it just because I disagree with you?
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - N0

Postby Parabellum » 14 Jan 2018, 03:07

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
Zoomzip wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:It's been a bit since we played. Are you back to your vote early vote often ways? I seem to recall you were trying a new approach, but perhaps it didn't stick.


Not voting early sucked. I ended up forgetting to vote at all in D1. I want to vote. Trying to decide between you and Parabellum right now.

You are at least somewhat engaging and poking at me with a stick. Parabellum is just toodling around going "Sure, he probably would have checked with his scum chums, but it is probably NAI." Kim is potentially making a read on me. SJG is NAI at this point.

Hmmmmm...

Parabellum

Ok, to engage with this on a non-silly level for a sec. What makes you classify my engagement with you as somewhat? Does it seem like I'm skirting the issue, or is it just because I disagree with you?


@ZZ

Also, how was my post not substantive? I don't see how you could be scum-reading me for that.
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - N0

Postby kimpossible » 14 Jan 2018, 03:07

kimbyrle wrote:
ExiledAtHome wrote:I'm not typically a whimsical voter. Initial observation of something somewhat scummy potentially is not going to drive a red vote by me. I need to develop a firm read on someone before I vote. Maybe not your style, but that's how I approach the game. Endless red votes are tough to track, and makes accountability difficult to enforce.

EAH, while I also don’t particularly care for the “vote on a whim” sort of approach, you don’t have to worry about tracking the votes, and frequent voting doesn’t affect accountability. That’s what the Vote Tabulator is for.

That said, we don’t seem to be set up as a game there yet.

And then I went and figured out how to set us up. Take THAT.
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - N0

Postby Zoomzip » 14 Jan 2018, 03:11

nanooktheeskimo wrote:Ok, to engage with this on a non-silly level for a sec. What makes you classify my engagement with you as somewhat? Does it seem like I'm skirting the issue, or is it just because I disagree with you?


It's more like I don't quite know the true basis, or have a feel for the true basis, of your disagreement. Disagreement is NAI at some level. But:
1) Disagreement because you don't want me to successfully Process of Elimination my way to a correct scum read is scummy.
2) Disagreement because you think I have the logic/psychology of it wrong is more likely to be town.
3) Disagreement and pushing into making a read on whether I am town or scum would be best, but I'm not sure I have evidence to suggest that is going on.

It feels like it is either 1 or 2. So... "somewhat." As opposed to figuring out the right vote. Whereas Parabellum concedes the logic of the argument, but then hand waves it away anyways, so that's more 1 than 2. Thus, vote for Para instead of you.

Like, right now the only person suggesting I might be scum is EAH. Which... I kinda dig where he's coming from there. I am... flamboyant and theatrical, and raising hackles is probably appropriate. Normally I'd be all over him for not voting it, but... then again, I think he's town :)
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - D1

Postby kimpossible » 14 Jan 2018, 03:11

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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - D1

Postby ExiledAtHome » 14 Jan 2018, 03:13

Kim,

I'm actually referring to tracking as in awareness of who voted for who when. If ZZ votes for two or three of his top scum-reads throughout a given day, I can keep mental track of that in how I develop my read on him. If he reaction-votes for every single player throughout the day, I can't keep mental track of why he voted particular players.

As for accountability, I'm speaking about players having to justify their votes. Again, if ZZ votes for only a couple players on a given day, and then settles on his final vote, we can hold him accountable for his ultimate final read. If he's passing out red votes like candy, then his final lynch vote is just one more in a long line of red votes that weren't particularly nuanced or developed.

Scum can easily wiggle around using this sort of approach.
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - N0

Postby Zoomzip » 14 Jan 2018, 03:16

Parabellum wrote:@ZZ

Also, how was my post not substantive? I don't see how you could be scum-reading me for that.


See my just made response to Nanook. If you are unclear, get back to me.

Also, yeah, I am looking to make a read as soon as I can and weigh it and see if I can get to the right vote. And... I can't tell if you are or not. And in a game that I will be playing as though it were vanilla, that's bothersome to me.

Vote early, vote often

Or rather:

Try to get to a good reason to vote early, and then see if you need to vote often or not based on what happens.

PPE: EAH, you are so wrong about the theory on this, and I refer you to the Men At Arms AAR for why you are wrong. Not voting is avoiding accountability, and allow for scum to sit back and vote as strategically as they want because there are no stakes.
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - D1

Postby kimpossible » 14 Jan 2018, 03:17

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
Parabellum wrote:
kimbyrle wrote:Why would you assume a scum counterclaim? If a dipole is always beneficial for town, why would scum give us one?


Bc in lylo the alternative is to hand town the win, because they only have one cop to trust.

This is also true--if cop claims at LYLO, scum has to counterclaim, or risk cop having game winning knowledge.

Really though, the point for me is that claims at LYLO can't be blindly trusted.

Ok, I got it — I didn’t realize you were only talking about LYLO situations.
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - N0

Postby Nanook » 14 Jan 2018, 03:18

Zoomzip wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:Ok, to engage with this on a non-silly level for a sec. What makes you classify my engagement with you as somewhat? Does it seem like I'm skirting the issue, or is it just because I disagree with you?


It's more like I don't quite know the true basis, or have a feel for the true basis, of your disagreement. Disagreement is NAI at some level. But:
1) Disagreement because you don't want me to successfully Process of Elimination my way to a correct scum read is scummy.
2) Disagreement because you think I have the logic/psychology of it wrong is more likely to be town.
3) Disagreement and pushing into making a read on whether I am town or scum would be best, but I'm not sure I have evidence to suggest that is going on.

It feels like it is either 1 or 2. So... "somewhat." As opposed to figuring out the right vote. Whereas Parabellum concedes the logic of the argument, but then hand waves it away anyways, so that's more 1 than 2. Thus, vote for Para instead of you.

Like, right now the only person suggesting I might be scum is EAH. Which... I kinda dig where he's coming from there. I am... flamboyant and theatrical, and raising hackles is probably appropriate. Normally I'd be all over him for not voting it, but... then again, I think he's town :)

Yeah...ok...I see where you're going.

FMPOV, it's really hard to base a read on a single moment...whether that moment is EAH posting too soon, or it's you townreading him for it. Those both read as NAI on their own to me, in a vacuum. They're both the kind of things I might revisit later in connection to a pattern or a trend, once I have more context for them, but in a vacuum they both look pretty NAI to me. I'm not discouraging you from pursuing it--I think that's good, somebody needs to, but that somebody shouldn't be me, because I can't really do so genuinely as I don't really see it as AI on its own. If that makes sense.
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Re: Mafia CLXVIII: Normal Mafia - D1

Postby Nanook » 14 Jan 2018, 03:20

kimbyrle wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:
Parabellum wrote:Bc in lylo the alternative is to hand town the win, because they only have one cop to trust.

This is also true--if cop claims at LYLO, scum has to counterclaim, or risk cop having game winning knowledge.

Really though, the point for me is that claims at LYLO can't be blindly trusted.

Ok, I got it — I didn’t realize you were only talking about LYLO situations.

Yeah, sorry--I was kinda going back and forth a little bit, so it was probably easy to lose track. Outside of LYLO, scum probably doesn't counterclaim (mayyyyybe, but I don't really see much value in it for them). At LYLO, they may or may not, but there's a very good chance they do, and there's a further good chance they claim first and let someone CC them, if they're still alive.
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