Fable 10- Surprise- Game Thread

[justy]

Message from Joe

Joe suggests following passes for next night:

Head goes to Shadow
Body goes to RedSun
Arm goes to EaH
Leg goes to RedSun

Shirt is backup for each of these passes.

[ExiledAtHome]

Flat out refusing to answer what? WHAT, SHIRT!?

1: which part of the breakdown i gave you AND POINTED YOU TO (at the end of D6, after (as pointed out) it was clear Joe would not be able to speak up again).
- 'there is literally no benefit to scum (yes even if it is me), to go for the 1-target plan', made you think 'i don't have a strong enough townread on you' was an even remotely town-positive response?

So this is your final D6 post. You asked if I had anything to add, and I said I didn't see value in sending pieces exclusively to you unless I know you're town, which I don't. Then the thread ended. That's not a dodge, and it's not anti-town. You just keep saying there's no benefit for scum if you hold all the pieces. I didn't have any idea why that is. I pretty much stopped trying to understand a thing you're saying a long time ago. Right now we're in a situation where scum CANNOT lie, or they die and lose. So I don't see any upside or downside to passing to 1, 10, or 20 fucking players now. It doesn't matter now. It may have mattered yesterday when 2 scum were still technically in play, but I can't understand a word you say, so if there was a proper value to passing everything to you, it never clicked for me yesterday.

2: What was the scum-positive play you thought you saw in giving me 2 pieces and no way to deny i had them, over giving me 2 pieces AND the ability to deny having them?

The thought was if we're wrong about you, scum holds all the pieces, so passing to two different non-GPD players ensures some pieces are in town's control. In retrospect, scum with pieces wouldn't really matter once GPD flipped scum, as lying about where they pass isn't going to be helping them out at all unless it's an endgame lie. But, I hadn't thought everything out to it's complete, final conclusion, still didn't know 100% whether GPD would flip scum, and thus how pigenholed the final scum would be today, so my instinct was simply not to give every fucking piece in the game to one alignment-unknown player.

3: How is this: 'last minute push against a town-positive plan' should NOT be discussed right now or this: either you stop considering the possibility i'm scum or i'll (try to) throw the game, townie behavior?

The first link is NOT me saying that we shouldn't be discussing a particular issue, it was simply a call for us to discuss where we're passing tonight. You're free to discuss whatever you want, and if that single comment by me is going to completely shut-down the town from further discussion, then this is one fickle group we have. The second comment, yea, I'm pretty done with this game. This town is dysfunctional as hell, yet somehow we're still on auto-win cruise mode, and yet you're still in here trying to torpedo it all by trying with every fiber in your being to make me look scummy. This entire game setup doesn't really work for me, hasn't been enjoyable AT ALL, and yet I've made every effort to be here, to participate, work as hard as I can, despite a number of RL distractions (I moved cross-country halfway through this game, was living out of hotels for 4 days, and unpacking and getting settled ever since, along with a new work location, and I wrecked my car last week) and yet here I am having to defend myself from spurious attacks when we're this close to winning despite half the fucking town basically not playing this entire game because "the holidays season" which apparently they forgot was right around the corner when they signed up to play. This town doesn't deserve to win. If you're scum, kudos to you for pretty much making enemies of every single player in the game and yet skating through alive somehow; I won't even be mad at you if you're scum. But the people actually putting time and effort into playing are consistently the only ones having to constantly defend themselves while everyone else is off doing God knows what and we just keep giving them a pass. I'm tired of it all. If Joe sticks to the plan, we win. I'm not going to keep defending myself to you. And if Joe wants to kill me for that, I'm fine with it. It hasn't been fun for quite some time, but at least I've held up my end of the bargain and have actually played the game. That seems to be scummy around here. Cool.

4: Do you have anything to contribute (other than threatening rage-quits) to my 'piece placement is about to become so damn tight, perhaps scumreads a day or more in advance might be useful'. (if nothing else, there is a really freakin easy accusation to a scum-agenda in there)

I love how you make these comments such as "have anything to contribute" or "gonna add anything to" (implication being that we're ignoring you) in reference to posts you've JUST MADE. You made that point at 23:30, and at 00:15 you're already on my case for not addressing it.

Well here goes: YES, I'd rather pass to townreads, so presenting scumreads still has value. However, scum can't lie anymore. If 3 pieces get moved, we know a lie was told, it no longer really matters who holds those pieces. If we hit a scum, its over. But, if we keep hitting the conduit (with zero pieces) we also win, it just takes longer. I don't agree with Joe's proposal to pass out to 3 different players, however, because then it's more difficult and delayed to find the liar and gives them the confidence to maybe try and pull that off, get two pieces assembled, and then take their chances with the 50-50% remaining split.

[ExiledAtHome]

Message from Joe

Joe suggests following passes for next night:

Head goes to Shadow
Body goes to RedSun
Arm goes to EaH
Leg goes to RedSun

Shirt is backup for each of these passes.

This makes it more difficult to find the liar if scum wants to try to move more than their two diverts. I need to look over piece passes, but we should try to trim the list down.

[ExiledAtHome]

To elucidate my above thoughts a little further:

1) If we're passing to players who are actually townies, the remaining scum is going to have to divert one piece to himself and one to another townie, this way if he's picked as conduit the following day he has a legitimate out to avoid getting killed, while still maintaining an opportunity to get a piece assembled in the secondary kill pool.

1A) If the conduit is a townie with no piece, clean kill. Cycle continues.

1B) If the conduit is scum, he should have a piece on him, and will claim, as there's absolutely no chance for scum to suicide bomb themselves anymore. This pushes the kill into the secondary pool where they'll be only 1 piece, but tomorrow night probably only 2 players as viable secondary kills. 50-50 shot at missing the piece.

1C) If the conduit is a townie with a piece, we shoot into the secondary kill pool, and we either hit scum or hit a townie with no piece.

Conclusion: if we end up passing to townies, scum is extremely limited in what they can do, but we need to try to pass to only 2 players, to better ensure we're passing to townies and to narrow the pool if scum lies. Passing to 3 players gives scum a better chance at getting night immunity, which isnt terrible it just prolongs the game.

2) If we end up passing to a player who is scum, he'll have two choices the following night:

2A) Divert only the 2 pieces onto separate townies, hoping one of them gets picked as conduit, thus pushing the Kill onto the remaining townie who would be holding a piece, OR;

2B) Divert two pieces, onto one townie, and then pass his own piece to another townie, hoping to get a 2-piece kill. If this happens, we know one of the piece holders was scum and begin narrowing that down, with scum only then being able to divert 1 piece moving ahead.

Conclusion: limiting the pool of players we pass to as best we can will shorten the timeframe it takes to nail a lying scum.

[ExiledAtHome]

Message from Joe

Joe suggests following passes for next night:

Head goes to Shadow
Body goes to RedSun
Arm goes to EaH
Leg goes to RedSun

Shirt is backup for each of these passes.

This makes it more difficult to find the liar if scum wants to try to move more than their two diverts. I need to look over piece passes, but we should try to trim the list down.

Basically, this would mean that tonight the NO KILLS would have to be Shirt, Shadow, EAH, and RedSun. Justy is conduit, Iggy is secondary pool. If Justy claims a piece, Iggy dies. If he's town AND has a piece, then we're in a bit of a pickle the following day.

Shadow, EAH, and RedSun would be NO KILLS (presumably), and so Justy and Shirt would be the conduit / secondary kill pool. That doesn't leave any wiggle room to miss a piece if scum is actually one of the players we're passing to tonight.

On the other hand, if we pass to two players tonight (let's just say Shadow and RedSun if that's even possible), then tomorrow we'd at least have 2 players in the Kill pool, and so if Shadow or RedSun were scum, we'd have a change of avoiding a piece still of the conduit claims a piece.

So, yea, I prefer passing to 2 players, not 3. Now to go see who's eligible.

Shirt, the above two comments are the sort of discussion I was suggesting we have. Never was it supposed to shutdown efforts to scumhunt, just these are the mechanical discussions we need to win the game.

[ExiledAtHome]

ELIGIBILITY (N7):

EAH: Body, LeftArm
(I've never held the Body, and I passed the Arm at the beginning of N4, so I did not have it N5 or N6).

Shadow: Head
(Shadow passed the Head at the beginning of N2)

RedSun: Body, RightLeg
(RedSun passed the Body at the beginning of N4 and passed the Leg at the beginning of N1)

Shirt: RightLeg
(Shirt passed the Leg at the beginning of N3)

So, with the above grouping, it's actually going to be impossible to pass to only two players. The only way to pass to two players is to include Iggy or Justy in the passes. I'm not willing to give Iggy pieces, so that only leaves Justy, but that would mean Joe has to commit to NOT KILLING Justy even if he claims no pieces, meaning Iggy could still have two on him. I don't like that route very much.

Frick. I guess we need a group of three afterall.

[shadowface]

@Shirt

First thing -

- either your alignment is relevant, as you AREN'T mechanically cleared town (if we do the sensible thing and not bet the game on, Angel will always be town').

Who do you think is arguing that "Angel will always be town"? We are arguing that kim was very likely town. Do you disagree that her play was hugely town-kim (you weren't in GQ with her but her scum play was massively different than her Men at Arms play)? Also, do you think she was trying to push lynches as scum would (to people with pieces)? What's her reason for lying about piece passes, given the risk that that kind of thing could be to her as a third party? Constructing a reasonable narrative for kim lying would really help you flesh* out this argument. I'm not against that consideration at all, but I just don't see why kim would lie there and I do need to give it more thought. But you seem fairly convinced that she was scum, so maybe you can help the rest of the town understand your process here.

*

Second thing -
Stop accusing EaH of dodging your questions. You've spent most of the game accusing me of dodging your questions or trying to avoid answering you - now you're doing that to to him. You were wrong about me, and even you must know that you have to be wrong about one of us. Consider a different explanation than "player is scum dodging questions, sound the alarm!" whenever you have difficulty communicating with someone; you can push a line of inquiry without continually restating a presumption of guilt at every level of your interaction.


@EaH

Flat out refusing to answer what? WHAT, SHIRT!?

I'm tired of your games. Say what you mean and stop with this cryptic bullshit, it's pissing me off, and I'm seriously about to just ask Joe to kill me. I don't give a fuck if I have pieces or not. You guys can figure out the rest of the game.

Frustrating, yes. Do you think it matters? If shirt makes a good point against you Joe will consider it when choosing a kill target. Otherwise, if shirt's accusations aren't convincing, they don't matter. We have a judge in this game and you need not worry that someone is accusing you wrongly, as it will have no impact.

Threatening to commit suicide isn't helpful though.

This town is dysfunctional as hell, yet somehow we're still on auto-win cruise mode, and yet you're still in here trying to torpedo it all by trying with every fiber in your being to make me look scummy. This entire game setup doesn't really work for me, hasn't been enjoyable AT ALL, and yet I've made every effort to be here, to participate, work as hard as I can, despite a number of RL distractions (I moved cross-country halfway through this game, was living out of hotels for 4 days, and unpacking and getting settled ever since, along with a new work location, and I wrecked my car last week) and yet here I am having to defend myself from spurious attacks when we're this close to winning despite half the fucking town basically not playing this entire game because "the holidays season" which apparently they forgot was right around the corner when they signed up to play.

Regardless of your faction your play this game has been very strong IMO. You're sort of holding the town together which I really appreciate (though this town hasn't been that dysfunctional in my opinion ).

Finally, you really haven't enjoyed it? I've been loving this game... I am actually blown away at how good of a puzzle this it. If you're not enjoying the game, though, why are you putting this much time into it?

Anyways, I'm flying back home tomorrow night and able to engage properly then if the day hasn't ended yet.

[ExiledAtHome]

Shadow,

The mechanics of this one don't really do it for me. There's simply no game-driven incentive to participate and put yourself out there. I think we've done a good job coming up with a plan (thanks, by the way), but ever since we lost guys like Condude and Nanook, it's just the same few players doing all the heavy lifting.

There have been 5-6 players who have went through unacceptably long spells of inactivity, and really only GPD has a good excuse at this point (lurking was definitely part of his strategy, it seems). But the less others participate, the more the rest of us have had to pick up their slack, and the more we've had to provide material to the town to parse, which leads to us having to continually open ourselves up to disproportionate levels of critique while others skate by.

I continue to do so, not because it's been fun, but because I signed up. You sign up, you either play or sub-out.

You're right, rage-quitting isn't fair to the town, but my God, Shirt is infuriating. And after all the crazy shit I've had going on these last few weeks, my patience is at an all time low right now to continue to deal with this nonsensical onslaught and invest the time and energy it requires to actually make any sort of inroads with a player like Shirt.

I honestly will just be relieved if Joe kills me at this point, but I know that's not what's best for the town. I'll keep playing as long as I'm alive, but it's only out of obligation, not enjoyment.

I should have waited for a more vanilla setup, after a 14 month hiatus from the site.

[shadowface]

@shirt: What's your read on me? Has it changed from the scumread you had on me yesterday?

[RedSun]

ELIGIBILITY (N7):

EAH: Body, LeftArm
(I've never held the Body, and I passed the Arm at the beginning of N4, so I did not have it N5 or N6).

Shadow: Head
(Shadow passed the Head at the beginning of N2)

RedSun: Body, RightLeg
(RedSun passed the Body at the beginning of N4 and passed the Leg at the beginning of N1)

Shirt: RightLeg
(Shirt passed the Leg at the beginning of N3)

So, with the above grouping, it's actually going to be impossible to pass to only two players. The only way to pass to two players is to include Iggy or Justy in the passes. I'm not willing to give Iggy pieces, so that only leaves Justy, but that would mean Joe has to commit to NOT KILLING Justy even if he claims no pieces, meaning Iggy could still have two on him. I don't like that route very much.

Frick. I guess we need a group of three afterall.

Is there a way we could set it up so only 2 or even better 1 player could get all pieces the next night?