Mafia CLXVI: Improvised Mafia Day 2

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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby shadowface » 20 Nov 2017, 20:26

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
sjg11 wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:So, I'm coming out of this thinking that Para is looking fairly townie to me. This doesn't read as scum play to my eyes. I think if he's scum, he either keeps quiet and accepts the half clear, or he fights vehemently against it to get town cred. He kind of did neither here.

Sure, that is also a valid scum play, sit back and see how the wind blows. But, I think that this is more likely to be town play than scum, so I'm giving him some town points for it.

Wait I'm missing your point here... could you go into a little bit more detail about this moment as I'm not understanding you? What's the scum narrative and the town narrative for PB's actions and why is one more likely than the other here?

On my phone, so this is the quick and dirty version. If you need it expanded more, happy to do so later from my laptop.

My thinking is basically that there are more natural scum plays available--note that I'm saying more natural, not necessarily better. In this situation where a townie is offering up what you know as a false partial clear, as scum I think the natural reaction is either:

1. Back up that reading of the rules, and encourage the dual false clears and hope that carries you through.

OR

2. Hard attack the clear idea and basically say "there's no chance in hell this is right and you're scummy for even suggesting it," and look to get towncred that way, by tearing down your own clear.

He doesn't seem to really have done either of those, but more taken the middle road. I'm not saying that's 100% indicative, because yeah, obviously scum can play the waiting game, I'm just saying that I think there were more natural paths available to scumParabellum that he passed on. Of course he could be aware of this and that's why he passed on them, so I'm not completely townreading him for it, just saying I think it gives him some town points from me.

Of course, this is with the bias that I try to play fairly aggressively as scum, so I'm not attaching a large amount of importance to this.


As someone who has been 'towncleared' as scum on multiple occasions, I am MUCH more likely to take the middle road than a hard line. Both Fable 9 and Galaxy Quest, my reaction to being cleared was 'yeah I'm cleared, but if the town begins to doubt that I'm not going to push it beyond a certain point'. Scum knows townclears are doubted as the numbers get down and they don't want to put all their eggs in that basket.

I see no reason to expect a polarized reaction. Where do you get the impression that the scum would do this?
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby Parabellum » 20 Nov 2017, 20:31

Just to be clear, I didn't exactly take a middle road. I called Nanook's proposed situation absurd and asked Condide for clarification.
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby Telleo » 20 Nov 2017, 20:40

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
sjg11 wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:So, I'm coming out of this thinking that Para is looking fairly townie to me. This doesn't read as scum play to my eyes. I think if he's scum, he either keeps quiet and accepts the half clear, or he fights vehemently against it to get town cred. He kind of did neither here.

Sure, that is also a valid scum play, sit back and see how the wind blows. But, I think that this is more likely to be town play than scum, so I'm giving him some town points for it.

Wait I'm missing your point here... could you go into a little bit more detail about this moment as I'm not understanding you? What's the scum narrative and the town narrative for PB's actions and why is one more likely than the other here?

On my phone, so this is the quick and dirty version. If you need it expanded more, happy to do so later from my laptop.

My thinking is basically that there are more natural scum plays available--note that I'm saying more natural, not necessarily better. In this situation where a townie is offering up what you know as a false partial clear, as scum I think the natural reaction is either:

1. Back up that reading of the rules, and encourage the dual false clears and hope that carries you through.

OR

2. Hard attack the clear idea and basically say "there's no chance in hell this is right and you're scummy for even suggesting it," and look to get towncred that way, by tearing down your own clear.

He doesn't seem to really have done either of those, but more taken the middle road. I'm not saying that's 100% indicative, because yeah, obviously scum can play the waiting game, I'm just saying that I think there were more natural paths available to scumParabellum that he passed on. Of course he could be aware of this and that's why he passed on them, so I'm not completely townreading him for it, just saying I think it gives him some town points from me.

Of course, this is with the bias that I try to play fairly aggressively as scum, so I'm not attaching a large amount of importance to this.


What?

Scum who know this is false should absolutely not support it. They'd expect that you were laying a trap since it hinges on a question you asked Condude (which he has declined to answer to me, by the way). It's a foolish place to base a lie.

On the other hand, they ALSO can't come right out and oppose the clear. What grounds would they have to attack your clear that DOESN'T revolve around their own scumminess? Taking the middle ground, poking and prodding until the truth comes out, is the clear best path for scum.

Your expectations of scum play are wack.
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby Telleo » 20 Nov 2017, 20:42

Parabellum wrote:Just to be clear, I didn't exactly take a middle road. I called Nanook's proposed situation absurd and asked Condide for clarification.


Which is what I would expect of you if you were scum, and is also what I would expect of you if you were town, and is the definition of NAI.
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby Parabellum » 20 Nov 2017, 20:47

Telleo wrote:
Parabellum wrote:Just to be clear, I didn't exactly take a middle road. I called Nanook's proposed situation absurd and asked Condide for clarification.


Which is what I would expect of you if you were scum, and is also what I would expect of you if you were town, and is the definition of NAI.


NAI or not, I had to clarify. Nanook misrepresented me before and SJG and SF seemed to be going along with that false idea, so I had to correct it.
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 20 Nov 2017, 21:09

Parabellum wrote:
SJG could you please respond to this? Why did you think Nanook was putting questions to the GM? I did not see him do that in regards to his "semantics" argument. Instead, he took an unlikely interpretation of the rules and ran with it... I've already bumped the posts where I was the one asking Condude for clarification.

Because nanook said he had and condude later confirmed that people had been asking him questions about this, indirectly confirming nanook's story and his status as town?
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 20 Nov 2017, 21:11

nanooktheeskimo wrote:
sjg11 wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:So, I'm coming out of this thinking that Para is looking fairly townie to me. This doesn't read as scum play to my eyes. I think if he's scum, he either keeps quiet and accepts the half clear, or he fights vehemently against it to get town cred. He kind of did neither here.

Sure, that is also a valid scum play, sit back and see how the wind blows. But, I think that this is more likely to be town play than scum, so I'm giving him some town points for it.

Wait I'm missing your point here... could you go into a little bit more detail about this moment as I'm not understanding you? What's the scum narrative and the town narrative for PB's actions and why is one more likely than the other here?

On my phone, so this is the quick and dirty version. If you need it expanded more, happy to do so later from my laptop.

My thinking is basically that there are more natural scum plays available--note that I'm saying more natural, not necessarily better. In this situation where a townie is offering up what you know as a false partial clear, as scum I think the natural reaction is either:

1. Back up that reading of the rules, and encourage the dual false clears and hope that carries you through.

OR

2. Hard attack the clear idea and basically say "there's no chance in hell this is right and you're scummy for even suggesting it," and look to get towncred that way, by tearing down your own clear.

He doesn't seem to really have done either of those, but more taken the middle road. I'm not saying that's 100% indicative, because yeah, obviously scum can play the waiting game, I'm just saying that I think there were more natural paths available to scumParabellum that he passed on. Of course he could be aware of this and that's why he passed on them, so I'm not completely townreading him for it, just saying I think it gives him some town points from me.

Of course, this is with the bias that I try to play fairly aggressively as scum, so I'm not attaching a large amount of importance to this.

A reasonable point... what do you think about my argument that your town? Do you think the same logic applies to Parabellum?
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby Parabellum » 20 Nov 2017, 21:16

sjg11 wrote:
Parabellum wrote:
SJG could you please respond to this? Why did you think Nanook was putting questions to the GM? I did not see him do that in regards to his "semantics" argument. Instead, he took an unlikely interpretation of the rules and ran with it... I've already bumped the posts where I was the one asking Condude for clarification.

Because nanook said he had and condude later confirmed that people had been asking him questions about this, indirectly confirming nanook's story and his status as town?


No, I've already responded to this. You are remembering wrongly. Nanook had asked a question in the beginning, before his semantics argument. It was Condude's response that prompted the semantics argument.

My point is that Nanook's semantics argument was based on a sketchy interpretation of the rules, one that only needed a response to Condude for clarification. Nanook never claimed to have asked for that clarification. I did.
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby Parabellum » 20 Nov 2017, 21:36

nanooktheeskimo wrote:Ok, so I'm reasonably to moderately sure of parabellum as town. I asked the GM if the win conditions were based on a running tally or if they were only counted at end of day/night, and he answered that it was a running tally. He answered in black though, so, ya know, beware of that I guess.

Which means that I don't think Para is scum, because if he was Iggs the game should have ended with him joining, as that would have made it 1:1.

I encourage other players to ask condude the same question. Either you get the same answer, and we can give Para and me half-clears, or you get a different answer and we can assume that the GM is full of it. Either way, useful information to have!


This is the only place I see Nanook saying that he asked condude a question.

My point is that Nanook assumed the running-tally rule would apply even when the game was mafia solitaire, which I said would be absurd. Because that didn't seem like a plausible way to run a game, I messaged Condude. I don't think Nanook ever claimed to have asked for a clarification when we challenged him on this interpretation.
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Re: Improvised Mafia Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 20 Nov 2017, 21:55

Parabellum wrote:
nanooktheeskimo wrote:Ok, so I'm reasonably to moderately sure of parabellum as town. I asked the GM if the win conditions were based on a running tally or if they were only counted at end of day/night, and he answered that it was a running tally. He answered in black though, so, ya know, beware of that I guess.

Which means that I don't think Para is scum, because if he was Iggs the game should have ended with him joining, as that would have made it 1:1.

I encourage other players to ask condude the same question. Either you get the same answer, and we can give Para and me half-clears, or you get a different answer and we can assume that the GM is full of it. Either way, useful information to have!


This is the only place I see Nanook saying that he asked condude a question.

My point is that Nanook assumed the running-tally rule would apply even when the game was mafia solitaire, which I said would be absurd. Because that didn't seem like a plausible way to run a game, I messaged Condude. I don't think Nanook ever claimed to have asked for a clarification when we challenged him on this interpretation.

1. It has been strongly hinted that multiple people asked condude questions in this area, we're agreed on that point are we not?
2. If nanook is scum, then he already knows the answer to this question. If he was given his role PM and was scum then he knows that a running tally is not being given in this case.
3. So, given condude's hint that people were asking multiple questions in this area and given that there is no motive for scum nanook to ask that question... I conclude that nanook is probably town.
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