Mafia CLXVI: Improvised Mafia Day 2

[shadowface]

Any last words, SJG? Unfortunately there were no fingerprints at the Telleo scene, so we can't provide indisputable evidence, but with Iggs we can't take a chance on life in prison.

I mean there were some claw and fang prints, so...

[sjg11]

Yeah sjg, nanook very clearly wasn't asking about the ratios. You're kind of twisting what happened.

But anyways, like I said earlier, this isn't unheard-of scum play at all. The scum motive is that you can report back to the town and say 'Hey guys, I checked with the GM and ____". Makes scum look like they care. What you're saying here is like saying that someone's towncleared because they were scumhunting, and only the town would care about finding the scum so they must be town! Acting is what the scum does, and being right about nanook on this is either you getting lucky or you knowing that he was town already.

SF, your reading comprehension is better than this. Yes nanook saying in thread "I asked the question" isn't indicative. The reason that this is interesting is because condude INDIRECTLY CONFIRMED THAT QUESTIONS IN THIS AREA HAD BEEN ASKED. Namely about wincons and running tallies. And, given that 2 of the 5 of us were completely inactive during that period that's evidence that nanook ACTUALLY ASKED the question.

And there is NO REASON to ask the GM a question you already know the answer to. Like, why the hell do you do that? This isn't about faking asking a question in the thread it's about the fact that we have evidence that nanook ACTUALLY ASKED THAT QUESTION.

Are you seriously telling me that you wouldn't do this as scum so you could tell the thread you asked a question to the GM? If scum don't do that, they will be caught every single game for not having this kind of curiosity. I mean, I can almost guarantee I've done this as scum before. It's part of the pretending act. You've completely neglected to address that part of my comment for why there's a scum motive for running things by the GM even if you already know them. You're trying to look like you don't have the whole game solved - THE JOB OF THE SCUM. Even if I knew the answer, I'd never say that I had asked the GM something if I hadn't - that's cheating by a lot of rulesets. So the only option is to actually ask the GM that question.

I mean, it's slightly advanced scum play, but not beyond what players on this site do by any stretch. Now, not having any doubt in something like that - that's an unrealistic level of confidence.

Would GMs kill someone for lying about asking the GM a question? I wouldn't necessarily as a GM in fact generally I would be fine with that. They start pretending to copy messages from me and the modkills start coming out but in my view saying "I asked the GM a question" isn't cheating because it's impossible for the players to verify it to give a player credit either way.

[sjg11]

Any last words, SJG? Unfortunately there were no fingerprints at the Telleo scene, so we can't provide indisputable evidence, but with Iggs we can't take a chance on life in prison.

PB, you have a lot to learn from this game.

Firstly, dumb is not scum. A non-indicative moment is a non-indicative moment no matter how stupid it is. And yes my Day One vote on nanook was pretty stupid and was abysmal play. For that reason I accept full responsibility for this town defeat.

I've said why I think it's indicative.

This is very similar to the correct argument people were making against me when I was lazy scum in Men at Arms. There is a huge difference between how much town cares about their townreads and how much scum cares about them. That difference influences their play, especially when they're not being particularly careful.

Completely different situation. With a joke vote my ability to forget about it is pretty much the same as either alignment.

[sjg11]

Sjg, I don't understand what you're saying your role is. You follow people around without doing anything or learning anything? That's not really a role.

No, the flavour I received last night made me worry about the fact I might be a Tracker in which case PB was clear and you were scum. My role is that I follow someone and if they're targeted by a night-kill I become lynchproof and bulletproof the next day/night phase.

Why did you follow Parabellum?

I thought you were scum and Telleo had been completely inactive. Made PB the most likely NK target from my perspective.

[sjg11]

Any last words, SJG? Unfortunately there were no fingerprints at the Telleo scene, so we can't provide indisputable evidence, but with Iggs we can't take a chance on life in prison.

PB, you have a lot to learn from this game.

Firstly, dumb is not scum. A non-indicative moment is a non-indicative moment no matter how stupid it is. And yes my Day One vote on nanook was pretty stupid and was abysmal play. For that reason I accept full responsibility for this town defeat.

Secondly, my nanook argument is completely airtight and I'll stand by it until the day I die. In the AAR you will know that I was both sincere and correct. Learn from that. Re-read what I was actually arguing here and actually try to understand it. From the start of this conversation you've entered into it with an "sjg is scum" mindset. Keirador did that in the last game and it irritated me. You enter into an engagement with me like that then it's impossible for me to engage with you as town.

shadowface

Your vote is shit and you know better than this. You're scum.

So pure OMGUS? On one hand you say that you have made an abysmal play and you accept "full responsibility for this town defeat," but then you vote me for thinking that you are scum. Which line is it?

Well if I'm right and you're scum my failure to change votes turned a winning vote into a mislynch... pretty hard to duck responsibility for the defeat after that one.

[shadowface]

Would GMs kill someone for lying about asking the GM a question? I wouldn't necessarily as a GM in fact generally I would be fine with that. They start pretending to copy messages from me and the modkills start coming out but in my view saying "I asked the GM a question" isn't cheating because it's impossible for the players to verify it to give a player credit either way.

Well I've only GMed one game before, so I'm not an expert on this, but as a player I would never take that risk and I've definitely seen some rulesets that say you can't lie about GM communications. That really opens a whole new can of worms, where every player would have to run every rules clarification by the GM. I've always assumed that no one could be lying about having asked the GM something. The point is, though, if there's any risk at all of it being illegal people are going to ask the GM about it. It would be an idiotic way to die if you were scum.

[sjg11]

See this is why I get frustrated with double standards sometimes.

Like, I do something good and it's "sjg does good things as either alignment so it's completely unindicative"

If I make an error I get hit with "sjg would NEVER make that mistake as town he must be scum"

Like if I'm almost always very good as either alignment then me playing poorly is unindicative. Either me playing well needs to be town indicative or me playing poorly is unindicative otherwise it's ridiculous.

[sjg11]

Would GMs kill someone for lying about asking the GM a question? I wouldn't necessarily as a GM in fact generally I would be fine with that. They start pretending to copy messages from me and the modkills start coming out but in my view saying "I asked the GM a question" isn't cheating because it's impossible for the players to verify it to give a player credit either way.

Well I've only GMed one game before, so I'm not an expert on this, but as a player I would never take that risk and I've definitely seen some rulesets that say you can't lie about GM communications. That really opens a whole new can of worms, where every player would have to run every rules clarification by the GM. I've always assumed that no one could be lying about having asked the GM something. The point is, though, if there's any risk at all of it being illegal people are going to ask the GM about it. It would be an idiotic way to die if you were scum.

That tends to be in the context of copying GM messages doesn't it? Which is very different from just saying "I asked the GM about..." which should be an unindicative assertion. Would nanook, who hasn't been around that long, be aware of this even if you are right?

[Parabellum]

Sjg, I don't understand what you're saying your role is. You follow people around without doing anything or learning anything? That's not really a role.

No, the flavour I received last night made me worry about the fact I might be a Tracker in which case PB was clear and you were scum. My role is that I follow someone and if they're targeted by a night-kill I become lynchproof and bulletproof the next day/night phase.

And yeah no clue why you found a knife at the door, I was poisoned last night so maybe that was a result of the killer killing Telleo when she was poisoning me?

um... huh?

[Parabellum]

Any last words, SJG? Unfortunately there were no fingerprints at the Telleo scene, so we can't provide indisputable evidence, but with Iggs we can't take a chance on life in prison.

PB, you have a lot to learn from this game.

Firstly, dumb is not scum. A non-indicative moment is a non-indicative moment no matter how stupid it is. And yes my Day One vote on nanook was pretty stupid and was abysmal play. For that reason I accept full responsibility for this town defeat.

Secondly, my nanook argument is completely airtight and I'll stand by it until the day I die. In the AAR you will know that I was both sincere and correct. Learn from that. Re-read what I was actually arguing here and actually try to understand it. From the start of this conversation you've entered into it with an "sjg is scum" mindset. Keirador did that in the last game and it irritated me. You enter into an engagement with me like that then it's impossible for me to engage with you as town.

shadowface

Your vote is shit and you know better than this. You're scum.

I haven't, though. I've engaged your arguments and explained why I thought you were wrong. And the really telling post to me was when you tried to claim that Nanook had asked about the ratios. That never happened. *shrug* If I'm wrong and SF is scum again, well... I'm just going to start off fable by voting her unless given a compelling reason to do otherwise on D1.