Mafia CLXIII: Insider - Game Over -- Insider Wins!

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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby JoeHoya06 » 07 Aug 2017, 05:14

Telleo wrote:@Joe: How do you not know what to make of Condude/me? Walk me through, if you would, what you understand to be the points in favor/against us being the insider, and what you find compelling/not compelling.


By that I meant, which one of you seemed more likely to be The Insider based on your early posts, back when your spat was the dominant discussion of the thread.

Your plan is perfect for The Insider: almost purely mechanical, with very little room for or need for The Insider to guide the discussion a certain way. Condude's seemed to designed to force The Insider's hand, but, as you may remember from my handful of mafia games, such an immediate attempt to boss the game sends an army of red flags up in my mind. I think InsiderDude could easily craft a plan that seems designed to smoke out The Insider while at the same time having something in his back pocket to counter it (since he was the one that created it). And that out may very well have been the "well, it's almost the deadline, so forget the quotas and the order thing, let's get the phrase" situation.

Condude: I included the link because I was borderline incredulous that the two of you never brought it up despite it being so readily visible in the links I found without really looking all that hard. "Shivers down your spine?" Jeez...dramatic much, PossibleInsiderDude? :roll:

Keirador: All right, so here was my initial question:

JoeHoya06 wrote:I have a question for those of you who were listing synonyms for "apartment building."

Where did those come from, the recesses of your mind, or the internet?


I had run a search before I asked, and before I asked if you all thought it was acceptable. My belief was as you stated; it wasn't outlawed in the rules, so it was likely fair game. Having seen the phrase "apartment house" pop up in all the top results, but not seeing it mentioned in-thread, I thought if that was the phrase, then if someone else had searched but didn't suggest the winner that would be pretty scummy.

When Keirador admitted to having searched for synonyms – another aside: I just googled "apartment complex synonyms," like you said you did, and two of the top three results I got were among the top five my initial search produced, so, the phrase was there for you to find if you wanted to – I thought, "A ha! I caught me an Insider!" Then Condude said he did the same thing, and I thought, "Hmm."

What's more scummy, someone possibly "finding" the answer, but withholding it as long as possible? Or saying, "oh, hey, yeah, me too, that's what I did" to attach yourself to someone you know is town? This is what I'm trying to figure out. Thoughts, anyone?

condude1 wrote:Not asking a third question is weird.


What? We asked two questions many times. And of the results I found that you questioned, none of them say "apartment tenement," just "tenement" by itself, so that's why I never asked about it.
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby condude1 » 07 Aug 2017, 05:40

JoeHoya06 wrote:Condude's seemed to designed to force The Insider's hand, but, as you may remember from my handful of mafia games, such an immediate attempt to boss the game sends an army of red flags up in my mind. I think InsiderDude could easily craft a plan that seems designed to smoke out The Insider while at the same time having something in his back pocket to counter it (since he was the one that created it). And that out may very well have been the "well, it's almost the deadline, so forget the quotas and the order thing, let's get the phrase" situation.


So my plan was to give myself an out. Like, you know, leaving an hour before deadline with the answer still unguessed? On top of that, everyone in-thread had said they were pretty much clueless when I left. I knew it wasn't an issue, because there was a decent shot that the insider would save us if all else failed. It worked out.

JoeHoya06 wrote:Condude: I included the link because I was borderline incredulous that the two of you never brought it up despite it being so readily visible in the links I found without really looking all that hard.


You say you were incredulous that we never brought "it" up. What's "it"? Apartment house? the option that you didn't distinguish at all from co-op when you guessed?
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby Telleo » 07 Aug 2017, 06:17

JoeHoya06 wrote:
Telleo wrote:@Joe: How do you not know what to make of Condude/me? Walk me through, if you would, what you understand to be the points in favor/against us being the insider, and what you find compelling/not compelling.


By that I meant, which one of you seemed more likely to be The Insider based on your early posts, back when your spat was the dominant discussion of the thread.

Your plan is perfect for The Insider: almost purely mechanical, with very little room for or need for The Insider to guide the discussion a certain way. Condude's seemed to designed to force The Insider's hand, but, as you may remember from my handful of mafia games, such an immediate attempt to boss the game sends an army of red flags up in my mind. I think InsiderDude could easily craft a plan that seems designed to smoke out The Insider while at the same time having something in his back pocket to counter it (since he was the one that created it). And that out may very well have been the "well, it's almost the deadline, so forget the quotas and the order thing, let's get the phrase" situation.


So you have no opinion on my (possibly paranoid) thoughts that Condude might be being intentionally manipulative in his discussion with me?

You have no opinion on Keir's thoughts that I townslipped?

You have no thoughts of your own on like 15 pages of mostly me and Condude talking back and forth, other than "Either plan might have been proposed by scum?"

Like, you get that this isn't really an answer when I'm asking you to evaluate two players, right?

JoeHoya06 wrote:I have a question for those of you who were listing synonyms for "apartment building."

Where did those come from, the recesses of your mind, or the internet?


I had run a search before I asked, and before I asked if you all thought it was acceptable. My belief was as you stated; it wasn't outlawed in the rules, so it was likely fair game. Having seen the phrase "apartment house" pop up in all the top results, but not seeing it mentioned in-thread, I thought if that was the phrase, then if someone else had searched but didn't suggest the winner that would be pretty scummy.


...but the Insider wouldn't have run a search. At all. Right? Because they know the phrase? So why is someone saying "I searched" but not appearing on the phrase scummy? I mean, if I'm the insider, and someone gives me a free pass to say "I googled to come up with the phrase," don't I take it?

When Keirador admitted to having searched for synonyms – another aside: I just googled "apartment complex synonyms," like you said you did, and two of the top three results I got were among the top five my initial search produced, so, the phrase was there for you to find if you wanted to – I thought, "A ha! I caught me an Insider!" Then Condude said he did the same thing, and I thought, "Hmm."

What's more scummy, someone possibly "finding" the answer, but withholding it as long as possible? Or saying, "oh, hey, yeah, me too, that's what I did" to attach yourself to someone you know is town? This is what I'm trying to figure out. Thoughts, anyone?


I mean, either way, doesn't this show that obviously a town could be forgiven for not finding the answer via searching? Keir and Con can't both be scum, so at least one of them is telling the truth.

condude1 wrote:Not asking a third question is weird.


What? We asked two questions many times. And of the results I found that you questioned, none of them say "apartment tenement," just "tenement" by itself, so that's why I never asked about it.


What about "Apartment Flat," as Condude also stated came up?
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby Telleo » 07 Aug 2017, 06:19

Condude, I have mail in thread to you. Do you intend to answer?
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby JoeHoya06 » 07 Aug 2017, 06:24

condude1 wrote:
JoeHoya06 wrote:Condude's seemed to designed to force The Insider's hand, but, as you may remember from my handful of mafia games, such an immediate attempt to boss the game sends an army of red flags up in my mind. I think InsiderDude could easily craft a plan that seems designed to smoke out The Insider while at the same time having something in his back pocket to counter it (since he was the one that created it). And that out may very well have been the "well, it's almost the deadline, so forget the quotas and the order thing, let's get the phrase" situation.


So my plan was to give myself an out. Like, you know, leaving an hour before deadline with the answer still unguessed? On top of that, everyone in-thread had said they were pretty much clueless when I left. I knew it wasn't an issue, because there was a decent shot that the insider would save us if all else failed. It worked out.


Are you asking a question here or being sarcastic? I can't discern your tone. Your initial plan could very easily have been to jump back on before the deadline if need be; we'll never know. And you encouraged "charadesing" the answer late on; what better way for InsiderDude to feel pretty confident we'd get the phrase – as you have said you were – without having to take on responsibility for getting us there?

condude1 wrote:
JoeHoya06 wrote:Condude: I included the link because I was borderline incredulous that the two of you never brought it up despite it being so readily visible in the links I found without really looking all that hard.


You say you were incredulous that we never brought "it" up. What's "it"? Apartment house? the option that you didn't distinguish at all from co-op when you guessed?


House, co-op, high-rise...any number of options that appeared on those pages that wasn't on your list of synonyms or among any guesses but might be the phrase. I can't remember why I didn't include high-rise among my choices – probably because I generally see it printed as two words, without a hyphen – but it showed up almost as often as the other two. Writing the "I was borderline incredulous" post later on, at that point I was probably referring to "house" since we knew that was the answer, but at the time, I was very surprised to see those pop up on Google but not in your "does it rhyme with 'development?'" list of synonyms.

(Never heard of an "apartment development" either...is this some sort of regional thing, where folks in the Northeast call it one thing, Southerners call it something else, and West Coasters have a third term?)
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby Keirador » 07 Aug 2017, 06:25

JoeHoya06 wrote:I had run a search before I asked, and before I asked if you all thought it was acceptable. My belief was as you stated; it wasn't outlawed in the rules, so it was likely fair game. Having seen the phrase "apartment house" pop up in all the top results, but not seeing it mentioned in-thread, I thought if that was the phrase, then if someone else had searched but didn't suggest the winner that would be pretty scummy.

When Keirador admitted to having searched for synonyms – another aside: I just googled "apartment complex synonyms," like you said you did, and two of the top three results I got were among the top five my initial search produced, so, the phrase was there for you to find if you wanted to – I thought, "A ha! I caught me an Insider!" Then Condude said he did the same thing, and I thought, "Hmm."

What's more scummy, someone possibly "finding" the answer, but withholding it as long as possible? Or saying, "oh, hey, yeah, me too, that's what I did" to attach yourself to someone you know is town? This is what I'm trying to figure out. Thoughts, anyone?

So how much time passed between when you googled the phrase and noticed "apartment house," and you coming into thread and asking about Google?
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby condude1 » 07 Aug 2017, 06:37

Telleo wrote:@Condude: I'm interested in your reaction to Sjg's plan. You were pushing your plan for quite a while, and then Sjg comes in, drops his, and I say sure, then you immediately adopt it. What about it seemed superior to your own plan, IYO, and why did you adopt it so quickly?


I stuck by the claim that my plan was the better of the two. People had already started following Sjg's (Joe, I think), and time was running low. I thought it was a bit annoying that Sjg came in late to the party and managed to veto all the discussion we'd been doing, but it wasn't particularly scummy.

So I thought mine was superior, but Sjg's was fine too. No real reason his doesn't serve the same function that mine was intended to. I adopted it quickly because we needed to get going on following one of the plans if we wanted stuff to happen.
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby Keirador » 07 Aug 2017, 07:17

JoeHoya06 wrote:(Never heard of an "apartment development" either...is this some sort of regional thing, where folks in the Northeast call it one thing, Southerners call it something else, and West Coasters have a third term?)

Dont think so, more a term of industry. Just a shot in the dark on my end, i used to work in a real estate adjacent field, and large building projects of any kind are always called "developments." "Apartment development" definitely sounded ungainly, but we'd already tried everything that seemed reasonable.
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby Telleo » 07 Aug 2017, 07:19

condude1 wrote:
Telleo wrote:@Condude: I'm interested in your reaction to Sjg's plan. You were pushing your plan for quite a while, and then Sjg comes in, drops his, and I say sure, then you immediately adopt it. What about it seemed superior to your own plan, IYO, and why did you adopt it so quickly?


I stuck by the claim that my plan was the better of the two. People had already started following Sjg's (Joe, I think), and time was running low. I thought it was a bit annoying that Sjg came in late to the party and managed to veto all the discussion we'd been doing, but it wasn't particularly scummy.

So I thought mine was superior, but Sjg's was fine too. No real reason his doesn't serve the same function that mine was intended to. I adopted it quickly because we needed to get going on following one of the plans if we wanted stuff to happen.


One of the key components that you and I were discussing was the number of questions each player should get to ask. Your concern on this matter was that too many questions would allow the Insider to hide more efficiently. In fact, this was not a secondary feature on your plan, it was the central tenet. Sjg's plan had no such limitations. Why did you find that to serve the same function as yours?

I supported Sjg's plan fully expecting you to jump down my throat about moving towards a plan that was less limiting than his. I was surprised to find no objection, no discussion, nothing. Even in moving to adopt the plan on time restrictions, you found nothing to be worth commenting on?
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Re: Insider: Phase 2

Postby JoeHoya06 » 07 Aug 2017, 07:31

Telleo wrote:So you have no opinion on my (possibly paranoid) thoughts that Condude might be being intentionally manipulative in his discussion with me?


From this post? viewtopic.php?f=306&t=56006&p=911778#p911778

I don't know that I think his comment was manipulative, because I thought the best way to find The Insider would be through the questions everyone asked, and your system wouldn't allow that to be very effective. Hyperbolic? Inflammatory? Yeah, probably, but manipulative? I dunno. However, you know in your head what your "half-formed thoughts" were, and if in your eyes you had the makings of a good idea for catching The Insider, and he was shitting all over you, then I don't think you were being paranoid, either. Defensive, for sure, but not paranoid.

Telleo wrote:You have no opinion on Keir's thoughts that I townslipped?


I don't see how it's a slip, really. You didn't know the song he was referring to. It was a ridiculous way to ask a question, if I'm being honest. Can someone explain why it's a possible slip?

Telleo wrote:You have no thoughts of your own on like 15 pages of mostly me and Condude talking back and forth, other than "Either plan might have been proposed by scum?"

Like, you get that this isn't really an answer when I'm asking you to evaluate two players, right?


I guess not? I really don't know what you're looking for here.

Telleo wrote:
JoeHoya06 wrote:I had run a search before I asked, and before I asked if you all thought it was acceptable. My belief was as you stated; it wasn't outlawed in the rules, so it was likely fair game. Having seen the phrase "apartment house" pop up in all the top results, but not seeing it mentioned in-thread, I thought if that was the phrase, then if someone else had searched but didn't suggest the winner that would be pretty scummy.


...but the Insider wouldn't have run a search. At all. Right? Because they know the phrase? So why is someone saying "I searched" but not appearing on the phrase scummy? I mean, if I'm the insider, and someone gives me a free pass to say "I googled to come up with the phrase," don't I take it?


In my mind, The Insider would want to have a real good feel for how close we were to getting the phrase, both literally and from a process standpoint; i.e. is what we're doing going to lead us to the answer or not? And when it comes down to people "charadesing" it, it would make sense to know whether or not it would come up on a list where someone might ask "does the second word start with the letter H?" or something to that effect. Or maybe he or she had also never heard the phrase before; it seems like it's not in the lexicon of a good chunk of the town, so The Insider might be included among that group.

But now that you mention it, if The Insider didn't actually search for anything, that would explain why he or she would say "yeah, I ran a Google search" but didn't actually suggest a phrase that appears in so many of the results. Like you said, the free pass would be there for the taking, but only if he or she knew it was there, and lying about searching would mean he or she wouldn't know.

Telleo wrote:What about "Apartment Flat," as Condude also stated came up?


Because my understanding is that an apartment and a flat are the same thing, and I didn't think the phrase would essentially be "Apartment Apartment." Also, I got "flat" and "flat house" a few times, but never "apartment flat."

Keirador wrote:So how much time passed between when you googled the phrase and noticed "apartment house," and you coming into thread and asking about Google?


Well, Officer, I was already in the thread before that. I was having a back and forth with you about calling me, Beavis, and SJG out for not playing. But I would say it was probably a few minutes; I saw that Condude had listed a bunch of synonyms, and then Beavis had asked directly about it being a synonym, so I thought to look. After looking at the results, I thought I might be on to something, but I wanted to have people on the record as saying they had searched before I threw out the idea of them possibly lying/withholding, so I asked before I guessed. Why?

A question for you, Telleo...has anything changed on your read of Condude from the early part of the game? You were pretty staunchly pro-ScumDude early on, and even said this:

Telleo wrote:Your method is to stumble blindly in the dark and then blame the one who accidentally finds the light switch.


and that's exactly what he's doing right now.
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