Mafia CLXIII: Insider - Game Over -- Insider Wins!

Moderators: Zoomzip, Telleo, bkbkbk, condude1, sjg11

Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby condude1 » 05 Aug 2017, 00:44

FUDDIN: I would like to ask that you respond to Telleo's questions with "Maybe?", since her questions do nothing to find the insider.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:26

condude1 wrote:
Telleo wrote:Well.

Finding the phrase, given 48 hours, shouldn't be too difficult, I don't think. I'm more concerned with how we'll identify the person who knows the phrase. I have a few half formed thoughts, but for now, I think our easiest route to learning the phrase is to play this like charades - step one, we need the number of words, then we go word-by-word to the ID. To that end...



ARE THERE AN EVEN NUMBER OF WORDS IN THE PHRASE?

DOES THE PHRASE CONTAIN FIVE OR FEWER WORDS?

DOES THE PHRASE CONTAIN NECESSARY PUNCTUATION?


This seems like a horrible idea. It gives the insider a numerical method of pushing us towards the right answer without making themselves known. How do you intend to find out who doesn't know the phrase if everyone's just asking how many words are in it?

You mention that finding the insider's the hard part, and then recommend a method that does nothing to help solve that problem. Not a great start from Telleo.

Does the phrase/word reference living organisms?
Does the word/phrase reference man-made structures?
Does the word/phrase reference war/fighting/violence?


The game ends in a loss if we do not discover the phrase. I would rather begin a process that actually moves us forward, rather than blindly stumbling about until we accidentally do something right. I expect, especially in the early stages of asking questions, to not be productive in finding the insider. Towards the end, perhaps we might be able to see someone who makes odd leaps of logic, or connects the dots too quickly. Claiming that a method that actively helps us find the phrase is "not a great start" is not a great start, Condude.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:27

Keirador wrote:We lose equally if we either don't guess the word or don't guess the Insider, right? So we have no incentive to even try to guess the phrase without the Insider's help. I'm sure we could guess it alone, which is the primary reason why we shouldn't even try. Better to play chicken and force the Insider to tip their hand at least a little.


So your plan is to do nothing?

Wonderful. I can see already that this will be a productive conversation.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:28

Keirador wrote:Agree with condude that I don't love Telleo's opening of "the hard part is finding the Insider, now let's get to work solving the puzzle," but condude then you go and do the same thing, no?


We have significantly more time to find the insider than we do to find the answer to the puzzle. Prioritize properly.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:29

beavis wrote:Odd that Telleo was quick to pass off finding the insider...


Weak.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:30

condude1 wrote:
Keirador wrote:Agree with condude that I don't love Telleo's opening of "the hard part is finding the Insider, now let's get to work solving the puzzle," but condude then you go and do the same thing, no?


I almost posted a follow-up explaining why my post is different. The way I'm asking questions is qualititative. If someone starts pinging the right questions to narrow down the phrase this way, we can get suspicious. For example, say it's a word, and the word is dynamite. If someone asks "Is it explosive?" out of the blue, that's a massive red flag. This means that the insider has to play a game of chicken, giving us as little information as possible, while making sure we solve the puzzle.

Telleo's method is so terrible because we get no information about the insider. Her questions are over/unders effectively. What do we learn if the phrase has fewer than 5 words? If it has more than 5 words? Nothing either way.

The reason we can't just do nothing to solve this and let the insider guide us is the following rule:
The Rules wrote:The GM reserves the right to award the game to the Insider if he feels a sufficient effort to guess the word or phrase was not made by the Commons.
. We need to make a sufficient effort after it. That's why my method is superior to Telleo's - we don't run afoul of this rule, and we give the insider enough rope to hang themselves.


Your method is to stumble blindly in the dark and then blame the one who accidentally finds the light switch. This is beyond useless. Get better.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:30

condude1 wrote:FUDDIN: I would like to ask that you respond to Telleo's questions with "Maybe?", since her questions do nothing to find the insider.


Beyond unacceptable. Don't lock me out of the game because you don't like my methods.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:36

So far we have three approaches to the game:

Keirador suggests that the town do nothing, and force the insider to tip their hand. This, as per the rules, is a victory for the insider. In addition, it's playing against our victory condition, since we ALSO lose if the phrase is not guessed.

Condude suggests we shout out questions, then attack anyone who gets the right answer. Because that's the best way to find the insider. Condude, think this through. Look to your dynamite suggestion. What's to stop me from saying "Yo, Condude was suspiciously close right off the bat" should the phrase turn out to actually be "Two birds with one stone?"

And we have my approach. Ask questions that begin moving us forward. No matter the answer, we become closer to the phrase with every one. And we STILL have the option to make judgement calls about someone jumping too quickly towards the answer. It's the best path. Get on board.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:52

Question for all:

Is the insider MORE or LESS likely to think ahead of time about ways the town should go about finding the answer to the phrase?

I'm inclined to think LESS. The Insider isn't REALLY concerned with finding the phrase. They're concerned with not being found out while they help us find the phrase.

This is relevant, because while Keir's proposal is wrong and bad, it shows a thought ahead of the game about how we might try to solve the puzzle. In fact, it's similar to a thought I had when I first read the rules. I'm less inclined to think of him as the insider because of it.

Condude, on the other hand, is just here to shout things out. His first posts leave me the impression that he has done ZERO planning in the night phase. His plan is to not plan. I don't like it, and I'm presently inclined to think negatively of him as a result.
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Re: Insider: Phase 1

Postby Telleo » 05 Aug 2017, 01:52

How's that for early voting? Behold, the new (and improved?) Telleo.
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