Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Telleo » 07 Jan 2017, 09:25

mhsmith0 wrote:
Telleo wrote:...
So to you, the prospect of each player learning their own push/pull value is worth killing at least one additional player, possibly more? Why, exactly?


I like town-controlled kill power. To me that's an inhererent ADVANTAGE, so while this makes you nervous, this makes me excited.

Remember how last game I told sjg he should have shot N1 and kept shooting? Same concept.


Alright. I strongly disagree with you, but I accept that this is consistent with your normal behavior.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:28

Telleo wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:...

Meanwhile lets say we have:

1. Jordan767
2. Sjg11 (2)
3. dodgy56 (5)
4. Shadowfriend1 (1)
5. Happymeal (3)
6. Telleo (1)
7. Keirador (5)
8. Harb (2)
9. MHsmith0 (4)
10. Crunkus (1)

telleo's "big circle" plan has the fairly obvious vulnerability of scum being able to very easily pick their targets. dodgy and K would in that case be pretty vulnerable to scum actions, so you could potentially see a double kill, depending on who they are, what their scores are and who's slated to act on them.

your "pick your pairs" plan has the same vulnerability PLUS the added danger of scum being able to INFLUENCE the pair selection process, whereas the above example has the benefit of the process being essentially random making vulnerable spots less common and, depending on the rand, MAYBE they don't exist.


My plan DOES have that vulnerability. It ALSO has the advantage of telling us (over a night or two) who's not following the plan. In the above example, let's say Crunkus is scum, and decides to kill Keir. mhsmith probably also dies, because he's at a high number, and Crunkus isn't helping negate it. The following morning, we all go "Hey, why are Keir/mh dead?" and reveal our numbers. Harb and Crunkus, who should have been targeting those two players, get suspicion. Harb says "Well, check out the numbers - I went to 2 last night, and went to 0 tonight. That's mh, Keir, and I, have all effectively negated our earlier orders. Guess it prob's Crunkus." Crunkus likely says the same, and we've got a dipole.

Things get better for us if that occurs on a night where Crunkus's supposed target DOESN'T die, because then said target goes "Hey, my points aren't at 0, someone who was supposed to target me didn't" and we have outed Crunkus as scum.


How does smith die there? Let's roll with those numbers a bit.

We have a scum team of crunkus and SF, and we mislynch jordan because no one listens to smith :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

Also I'm changing SF to a 2, and crunkus to a 4 (arbitrary but condude said random, and scum boht at 1 is a bit unlikely)

result of town-generated visits (push = + points, pull = - points)

sjg: -2
dodgy: -3 (pushing 5, pushed 2)
SF: +5 (pushed 5)
HM: -3
telleo: +2
K: -4
Harb: +3
mhsmith0: -2
crunkus: +4

now crunkus is a 4 and can do some damage. by pushing he'll be back to a net zero. Mechanically, he could stick with the plan and push sjg, resulting in no kills (but no exposure), but he can also knock off his choice of telleo or Harb

SF, meanwhile, is just a 2 so she MIGHT just stick to the plan since she has nothing better, resulting in:
SF +3
HM -1

or she might try to mess with the results a bit by pushing someone else and making the scores wacky and hard to solve for.

TLDR: if we lynch scum D1 I kinda like your plan. If we lynch town I'm not sold.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:31

Telleo wrote:...
Blah. I hate arguing with people who are trying to call me town.

This time it's a misunderstanding. I know the scum know the numbers we give to people when we push or pull. What I meant there is that they don't know the value we end up at in the morning, since they don't know who targeted whom.

We really need different terms for those two numbers.

From now on, a player's PUSH/PULL VALUE is the number of push or pull points they currently have.

From now on, a player's P/P RATING is the number they assign when they push or pull.


OK now I'm getting confused here. You say that in your plan everyone pushes the person right below them. So scum already know who targeted who, and what the resulting scores SHOULD be (and if town all agree to follow a plan, the only cheaters are scum). So, in that case, what is the downside of divulging the resulting scores? Because scum would ALREADY know where on the push/pull spectrum every player SHOULD be, with the only difference being if a town player cheated on the town plan (which I think both town and scum should assume not to be the case).
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Telleo » 07 Jan 2017, 09:32

mhsmith0 wrote:
Jordan767 wrote:But do we necessarily need to know our numbers to be mass murderers? Not necessarily unless we're trying to kill everyone really fast.

The natural reason to want to know your number is so you don't accidentally kill someone. But that's not a concern you have anyway.


Wrong. The main reason to want to know your number as town ASAP is so that you can construct future visitation schemes that make it difficult for scum to finagle additional night kills. The SECOND reason to want to know your number as town ASAP is that you can potentially catch scum in a mechanical lie (likely not until after N2 but possibly I'm missing something).

That said, the PRIMARY advantage is that town gets extra kill power (and I'm fully willing to discuss how many "vig targets" we should have - my current lean is just one). People underestimate how powerful it is to have extra town-controlled kill power in a game.


Those advantages only occur if EVERY townie knows their number, with 100% certainty. Otherwise, they become scum assets, because they can target according to the plans we set out to maximize kills. Then when things go wrong, they say "Well, someone didn't know their number so we don't know who's to blame," or, "Wait, player X was supposed to have 2 points, why'd the player they target die? Are they lying?"
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:32

Why do you always mislynch me? :(
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:33

Jordan767 wrote:Why do you always mislynch me? :(


Because it's fun! :D

You know who it's even MORE fun to lynch though? ;)
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:35

mhsmith0 wrote:
Telleo wrote:...
Blah. I hate arguing with people who are trying to call me town.

This time it's a misunderstanding. I know the scum know the numbers we give to people when we push or pull. What I meant there is that they don't know the value we end up at in the morning, since they don't know who targeted whom.

We really need different terms for those two numbers.

From now on, a player's PUSH/PULL VALUE is the number of push or pull points they currently have.

From now on, a player's P/P RATING is the number they assign when they push or pull.


OK now I'm getting confused here. You say that in your plan everyone pushes the person right below them. So scum already know who targeted who, and what the resulting scores SHOULD be (and if town all agree to follow a plan, the only cheaters are scum). So, in that case, what is the downside of divulging the resulting scores? Because scum would ALREADY know where on the push/pull spectrum every player SHOULD be, with the only difference being if a town player cheated on the town plan (which I think both town and scum should assume not to be the case).


Very good point.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:36

mhsmith0 wrote:
Jordan767 wrote:Why do you always mislynch me? :(


Because it's fun! :D

You know who it's even MORE fun to lynch though? ;)

you're gonna say shadowfriend aren't you.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby Jordan767 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:37

Telleo wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:
Jordan767 wrote:But do we necessarily need to know our numbers to be mass murderers? Not necessarily unless we're trying to kill everyone really fast.

The natural reason to want to know your number is so you don't accidentally kill someone. But that's not a concern you have anyway.


Wrong. The main reason to want to know your number as town ASAP is so that you can construct future visitation schemes that make it difficult for scum to finagle additional night kills. The SECOND reason to want to know your number as town ASAP is that you can potentially catch scum in a mechanical lie (likely not until after N2 but possibly I'm missing something).

That said, the PRIMARY advantage is that town gets extra kill power (and I'm fully willing to discuss how many "vig targets" we should have - my current lean is just one). People underestimate how powerful it is to have extra town-controlled kill power in a game.


Those advantages only occur if EVERY townie knows their number, with 100% certainty. Otherwise, they become scum assets, because they can target according to the plans we set out to maximize kills. Then when things go wrong, they say "Well, someone didn't know their number so we don't know who's to blame," or, "Wait, player X was supposed to have 2 points, why'd the player they target die? Are they lying?"

Also a good point.
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Re: Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread

Postby mhsmith0 » 07 Jan 2017, 09:37

Telleo wrote:
mhsmith0 wrote:
Jordan767 wrote:But do we necessarily need to know our numbers to be mass murderers? Not necessarily unless we're trying to kill everyone really fast.

The natural reason to want to know your number is so you don't accidentally kill someone. But that's not a concern you have anyway.


Wrong. The main reason to want to know your number as town ASAP is so that you can construct future visitation schemes that make it difficult for scum to finagle additional night kills. The SECOND reason to want to know your number as town ASAP is that you can potentially catch scum in a mechanical lie (likely not until after N2 but possibly I'm missing something).

That said, the PRIMARY advantage is that town gets extra kill power (and I'm fully willing to discuss how many "vig targets" we should have - my current lean is just one). People underestimate how powerful it is to have extra town-controlled kill power in a game.


Those advantages only occur if EVERY townie knows their number, with 100% certainty. Otherwise, they become scum assets, because they can target according to the plans we set out to maximize kills. Then when things go wrong, they say "Well, someone didn't know their number so we don't know who's to blame," or, "Wait, player X was supposed to have 2 points, why'd the player they target die? Are they lying?"


It basically forces scum to choose between:

1) killing townies, but the survivors then know their numbers with absolute accuracy (especially if the N1 vig target announces who HE is targeting beforehand [obviously his target then gets noise in the rating calculation, unless condude is announcing dead players' power ratings] )
2) NOT killing townies, just for the sake of messing with the numbers reports

#1 results in dead townies (except that scum can really only kill townies with high power ratings), but entirely or largely eliminates scum's power ratings info advantage, and #2 means that scum chose to no kill just for the sake of messing with town data (which is itself something helpful to town)

And again, that's the secondary advantage. The primary advantage is that town essentially gets a day 1 double lynch.
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