Push and Pull Mafia Game Thread Game Over - Mafia Victory!

[Jordan767]

Just reread the rules. Mine won't work anyway as we can't target the same player 2 nights in a row.

[mhsmith0]

Also scary for town if EOD wagons are town/town.

Not sure how your plan tells people their numbers. Also lets scum pick potentially up to 2 kills if they know everyone's action's direction plus its strength.

It's obvious how it tells people their numbers.

If you push on the collective target and your N1 report is "you're at 3 net pull" (or the like), then you're PROBABLY a 3, since you PROBABLY weren't visited by scum (or the dead N1 target) that night. It potentially largely eliminates scum's information edge about the numbers early.

Meanwhile lets say we have:

1. Jordan767
2. Sjg11 (2)
3. dodgy56 (5)
4. Shadowfriend1 (1)
5. Happymeal (3)
6. Telleo (1)
7. Keirador (5)
8. Harb (2)
9. MHsmith0 (4)
10. Crunkus (1)

telleo's "big circle" plan has the fairly obvious vulnerability of scum being able to very easily pick their targets. dodgy and K would in that case be pretty vulnerable to scum actions, so you could potentially see a double kill, depending on who they are, what their scores are and who's slated to act on them.

your "pick your pairs" plan has the same vulnerability PLUS the added danger of scum being able to INFLUENCE the pair selection process, whereas the above example has the benefit of the process being essentially random making vulnerable spots less common and, depending on the rand, MAYBE they don't exist.

[Telleo]

I have 2 alternatives to Telleo's plan (which I haven't evaluated fully yet...)

1. we all pair up and go one way one night and the other way the next night. Should keep anyone from dying in one night and puts them at net 0 for 2 nights. Also might end up vigging any scum who go off reservation if we have high numbered players.

2. we don't plan visits beforehand so scum can't fuck with us unless they both act together.

Thoughts?

So if I understand 1 correctly, we pair up, say You and Me, Keir and Crunk, HM and MH, etc? The rules state that you cannot target the same player on consecutive nights. That prevents us from negating our first push with a followup pull. That's why we should use my plan, in which we CAN negate those effects.

I'm not a fan of #2. Gives the scum all the power to fuck with us, since there's no accountability for anyone's night actions. They don't know anyone's push/pull value, but that's not a huge hindrance to them, is it? Especially if they have relatively high values themselves?

[mhsmith0]

Oh right also. By revealing our numbers we give the scum a huge advantage, because they can see who is close to death and who isn't. On the other hand, if we follow this (or any plan, really), they'll already be able to figure them out. BUT, we may, over a night or two, be able to figure out a few options for what our own numbers are.

You know what? I'm starting to think this game might involve math. Everyone up to date on their game theory?

Slight possible derp clear for Telleo there unless anyone can vouch for her screwing up rules understanding as a wolf. It'd seem pretty early in the game for her to have gotten advice THAT quickly from a teammate to fake that sort of thing.

Uhhh. That wasn't a rule misunderstanding. That was just something I forgot to put in the OG plan writeup. I knew that was an effect of the plan.

The point is, scum already know players power numbers, so by revealing N1 outcomes under a "we already know where everyone is supposed to go" scenario, scum would ALREADY know who's close to death and who isn't. So you're saying that your plan has a key weakness that only makes sense if scum don't know players' numbers, when per the rules scum do in fact know this. So either you intentionally tried to fake derp clear yourself, or you made a REALLY sloppy plan as scum, or you did something that reflects a lack of understanding of the rules, where scum would naturally know everyone's scores, and your "we give the scum a huge advantage" point would'nt be a natural point to raise in the first place, since you'd already know it was false.

[Telleo]

I'm going to refine my idea a bit.

Case 1: Town lynch D1
N1 everyone pushes the #2 wagon (the #2 wagon then pulls whoever he/she thinks is the most suspicious)

Advantages:
Town gains an effective vig shot N1 (and the N1 vig target effectively gets a vig shot as well, though it's uncertain if it would actually kill, since it depends on the numbers of the two people)
Town finds out their numbers with a pretty decent degree of accuracy (if two people other than the vig target die, then the surviving town MUST know their own numbers, if <2 such people die, then it's messier but at least a majority of the surviving town will know their own numbers since scum

Disadvantages:
Higher body count, it's conceivable that day 2 becomes MYLO if day 1 lynch AND all the night shots miss

Case 2: Scum lynch D1
Not really sure what's optimal here, but I'm somewhat inclined to go with something that limits the damage, similar to what telleo and jordan are talking about

So to you, the prospect of each player learning their own push/pull value is worth killing at least one additional player, possibly more? Why, exactly?

[Jordan767]

I have 2 alternatives to Telleo's plan (which I haven't evaluated fully yet...)

1. we all pair up and go one way one night and the other way the next night. Should keep anyone from dying in one night and puts them at net 0 for 2 nights. Also might end up vigging any scum who go off reservation if we have high numbered players.

2. we don't plan visits beforehand so scum can't fuck with us unless they both act together.

Thoughts?

So if I understand 1 correctly, we pair up, say You and Me, Keir and Crunk, HM and MH, etc? The rules state that you cannot target the same player on consecutive nights. That prevents us from negating our first push with a followup pull. That's why we should use my plan, in which we CAN negate those effects.

I'm not a fan of #2. Gives the scum all the power to fuck with us, since there's no accountability for anyone's night actions. They don't know anyone's push/pull value, but that's not a huge hindrance to them, is it? Especially if they have relatively high values themselves?

Yeah I realized 1 doesn't work. It was fun while it lasted.

2--true. Just throwing things out there at this point.

[mhsmith0]

...
So to you, the prospect of each player learning their own push/pull value is worth killing at least one additional player, possibly more? Why, exactly?

I like town-controlled kill power. To me that's an inhererent ADVANTAGE, so while this makes you nervous, this makes me excited.

Remember how last game I told sjg he should have shot N1 and kept shooting? Same concept.

[Telleo]

addenda:

I should say that I originally meant I hadn't looked at Telleo's plan too closely but that that also applies to mine.

Also, neither hers nor my #1 account for dying players. My thought on mine is to have the odd man out visit a scumread/a wagon. Not sure how to fix hers.

Hers accounts for lynched players fairly clearly

1. Jordan767
2. Sjg11
3. dodgy56
4. Shadowfriend1
5. Happymeal
6. Telleo
7. Keirador
8. Harb
9. MHsmith0
10. Crunkus

gives you sjg visiting dodgy, dodgy visiting SF, etc, and then crunkus visits sjg. Should we lynch elsewhere (cough, cough, SF) then that's where the gap gets filled (dodgy visits mcdonalds visits lord vader etc)

But over multiple (2-3 probably) nights players near a dead player will eventually die unless the dead player and the people next to them are all very similar numbers. Which could happen but shouldn't be relied on.

Hmmm. You're right. I'll need to recalculate, but I don't know yet if this is a fatal flaw. Gimme a minute or ten.

[mhsmith0]

I have 2 alternatives to Telleo's plan (which I haven't evaluated fully yet...)

1. we all pair up and go one way one night and the other way the next night. Should keep anyone from dying in one night and puts them at net 0 for 2 nights. Also might end up vigging any scum who go off reservation if we have high numbered players.

2. we don't plan visits beforehand so scum can't fuck with us unless they both act together.

Thoughts?

So if I understand 1 correctly, we pair up, say You and Me, Keir and Crunk, HM and MH, etc? The rules state that you cannot target the same player on consecutive nights. That prevents us from negating our first push with a followup pull. That's why we should use my plan, in which we CAN negate those effects.

I'm not a fan of #2. Gives the scum all the power to fuck with us, since there's no accountability for anyone's night actions. They don't know anyone's push/pull value, but that's not a huge hindrance to them, is it? Especially if they have relatively high values themselves?

Reread the rules, last line of page 4. Scum know everyone's power values already.

Like I said, derp clear or fake derp clear. The first potentially indicative moment of the game. I want everyone to weigh in on whether they think that faking this is within Telleo's wolf range; if not, then we have our first solid town read and it's only page 3

In related news, smith GOAT
Everyone else needs to catch up

[Jordan767]

...
So to you, the prospect of each player learning their own push/pull value is worth killing at least one additional player, possibly more? Why, exactly?

I like town-controlled kill power. To me that's an inhererent ADVANTAGE, so while this makes you nervous, this makes me excited.

Remember how last game I told sjg he should have shot N1 and kept shooting? Same concept.

But do we necessarily need to know our numbers to be mass murderers? Not necessarily unless we're trying to kill everyone really fast.

The natural reason to want to know your number is so you don't accidentally kill someone. But that's not a concern you have anyway.