Mafia CLVI: Charity Mafia: -- Pure of Heart Win!

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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby Happymeal » 23 Dec 2016, 14:49

So right now, here's my understanding of last night's night game:

Happymeal -> Harb, Justy
Justy -> Dodgy
Dodgy -> Justy
Harb -> ?

Harb is the key here. Harb had to target someone who targeted him, otherwise, someone would have had to be hit by both the redirect and the ghost shroud. I think that it was probably Dodgy. Dodgy targeted Justy, but in his kill last night probably also targeted Harb, which redirects both of them. I also targeted both of them, but I only received one of the abilities, which could just mean that Harb actually got redirected back onto me instead of a copycat ability being present. Now it could also be the case that dodgy copied the redirect and used it on somebody (now that I think about it, a random ability occurring is weird). However, the fact that I received the harder to see ability is overwhelming evidence that something is amiss in the night.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 16:20

Calling so much bs.. This is a desperate scum ploy. I'm happy with where my vote is.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 16:27

@ happy. There is absolutely no way you write that huge post on justy if you have set a trap for me. I find it more likely you were replying as you read, and then after you wrote that post, you saw that I had voted you, meaning you couldn't get justy lynched, so you immediately try your only other option. Getting justy to vote me. It's just such obvious scum desperation
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 17:40

Happymeal wrote:dodgy56

I think i caught him Justy.

I came into this day actually prepared to vote Dodgy, but I wanted to set up a trap and make sure everything was what I thought it was. I wanted to wait a little longer before revealing this, but decided that I shouldn't take the chance considering the momentum against me. Before I reveal what's caught me on to him, I'll reveal my secondary power.

My secondary power in my message I mentioned that is. It's an ability that basically is supposed to stop copycat powers, last night I targeted Harb with this ability. First and foremost, here's what tipped me on to Dodgy's lying:

dodgy56 wrote:I targeted just last night. And with both me and happy targeting just, it makes sense that harb targetted one of us and this reditected justy. No one has claimed to have my power so this again indicates that justy was redirected to harb


This post indicates that he did not get targeted by redirect first and foremost. I did not get targeted by Harb's redirect either. This means no one targeting Justy last night had the ability to stop his investigative report. This also means Harb did not target dodgy last night (if he didn't get the redirect power). This means I didn't use my secondary ability on him. This means he had free rein to do what wanted to do. However, here's the thing, I hid this peace of information from everyone, I received the harder to see ability last night. Justy, that's why you probably didn't get an investigative report on Dodgy, but I didn't receive the redirect ability. What sells me that dodgy has a copycat power is this. It probably randomly assigns someone an ability of his choosing, that's why I only got one.

are you buying any of this bullshit justy?

Happymeal wrote:Based upon the targeting last night, I think Harb redirected himself, this signifies that someone who targeted you also targeted Harb (which was me). However, Harb also died last night which means since I did not receive a redirect, then Dodgy must have also visited him. If that's the case, then he could well be mafia because someone needed to kill Harb. Now, it could also be you, but I'll explain why I think Dodgy is our final choice.


the targetting makes perfect sense, harb targets either you or me, which means justy is redirected, neither of us received a doc ability, meaning it was redirected back to harb. i dont see the issue, other than your made up role which is designed to stop another made up role. :roll:


Happymeal wrote:Outside of the mechanics, I think Dodgy's behavior yesterday was quite odd. I'm surprised you didn't come into today questioning dodgy about this, but he arbitrarily chooses a time to come in and vote red + end day. I think this signifies him as scum. He attempts to end the game in one swoop instead of going through more days. Instead of adhering to the plan (we let Harb vote Justy), he messes with it. Now, I don't know the specifics of what happened to the vote yesterday, but I do know that for some reason the scenario did not follow through with the rules, so that indicates to me that either the rules were misunderstood or someone had an ability to inflate the voting in one way or the other. I think it's the former though, nothing really proves the latter.


actually all i did was implement a plan you, sjg and justy had all agreed to by voting to end day. I mean obviously the plan was for harb to vote justy, but he was stalling so i acted to fulfil a plan 4 of us had agreed on. it ended up with the same vote, so in my mind it is the same thing. Im also still calling bullshit on your randomized lynch in a tie.
Happymeal wrote:So anyways, I did send both those messages, but I never sent the message to sjg, which makes me believe that Dodgy is mafia as he's the only one to gain from that action. Considering he utilized that reason to vote against me, it makes complete sense why he would do it.


hah yeah, i knew justy didnt fake that harb part. and again the copycat role i dont believe exists, i reckon you just sent sjg a message.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 17:50

justy wrote:Argh. I'm really confused by D3/N3 messaging. I agree with Happy that sending those messages don't make much sense if he's town. However, I don't get the investigative result on dodgy either, if dodgy is scum. Scum dodgy would require 1) godfather ability 2) ability to mess up with messages/ghost partner with that ability. It's more likely that Happy is lying than scum dodgy having all that help.


@Dodgy, could you explain why Condude switched from scum-read to town-read? It has something to do with vote analysis, I assume?


yeah, HM is trying everything he can at this point (and i dont blame him for it, i would be doing the same in his shoes)

me being scum makes absolutely no sense. look at all the points that suggest i am clear town... you even have an investigation result on me.. dont screw this up by buying into HM's bullshit

As for condude, his reaction to my thoughts on voting analysis, plus his own vote analysis, plus his inactivity early in d2 due to being busy, made sense from a town POV. and given that vote analysis was the main reason for voting him, that read subsided. turns out he fooled me...
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 17:51

justy wrote:Something in the night actions doesn't make sense. Something blocked the investigative ability I got from Happy, or made Harb impossible to read, because cop ability didn't work on Harb. Yet I don't think either of you has claimed such power?


or you know zz just didnt give you a message because Harb was killed and his allignment was revealed anyway?
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 17:52

justy wrote:
dodgy56 wrote:I targeted just last night. And with both me and happy targeting just, it makes sense that harb targetted one of us and this reditected justy. No one has claimed to have my power so this again indicates that justy was redirected to harb


Did either of you receive doc protection?


not that im aware of. i believe you were redirected back to harb, so therefore whichever one of me or HM was targetted by harb was protected.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 17:54

Happymeal wrote:To use writing style to determine who sent those messages is idiotic. Anyone can copy a writing style with ease. Either way Dodgy, I don't see a reason for me to lie about those messages in particular. Let's assume I sent those messages, what exactly would come of harm to actually say I sent them and then respond to people in thread about the content? It makes zero sense. The content is fairly innocuous at best and all I really have to do is convince Justy to vote you, which wouldn't be that difficult. if anything, he was gunning for you and you aren't that tough a sell based upon in thread performance. Even the night actions can be explained away at some point. Why do I take the path with the most resistance?



i go back to this quote from HM, note the bolded, hmm well he has just admitted to lieing about them hasnt he..
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby dodgy56 » 23 Dec 2016, 17:57

Happymeal wrote:
dodgy56 wrote:
Happymeal wrote:The only thing that really confuses me is his agreement to actually go along with Sjg's plan, but that could be explained as "he asked the GM" after his initial refusal to follow it. I think yesterday that points towards Justy scum who recognized it posed very minimal threat to him.


again this fits more with you as scum and having some sort of tiebreaker role than with justy being scum


While I don't have a secondary power, if I can have one, what can't Justy have one? Isn't it quite the possibility that he has a copycat power? I mean, look at it this way, you either have a doctor mafia or a cop mafia, how is this balanced for the mafia unless you give them the ability to do something else.

One more thing, I targeted Justy last night with my cop ability. I don't think he even mentioned it actually.


just another case of HM lieing today if his post about a trap and second ability are to be believed..
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 4

Postby justy » 23 Dec 2016, 22:54

Happymeal wrote:dodgy56

I think i caught him Justy.

I came into this day actually prepared to vote Dodgy, but I wanted to set up a trap and make sure everything was what I thought it was. I wanted to wait a little longer before revealing this, but decided that I shouldn't take the chance considering the momentum against me. Before I reveal what's caught me on to him, I'll reveal my secondary power.

My secondary power in my message I mentioned that is. It's an ability that basically is supposed to stop copycat powers, last night I targeted Harb with this ability. First and foremost, here's what tipped me on to Dodgy's lying:

dodgy56 wrote:I targeted just last night. And with both me and happy targeting just, it makes sense that harb targetted one of us and this reditected justy. No one has claimed to have my power so this again indicates that justy was redirected to harb


This post indicates that he did not get targeted by redirect first and foremost. I did not get targeted by Harb's redirect either. This means no one targeting Justy last night had the ability to stop his investigative report. This also means Harb did not target dodgy last night (if he didn't get the redirect power). This means I didn't use my secondary ability on him. This means he had free rein to do what wanted to do. However, here's the thing, I hid this peace of information from everyone, I received the harder to see ability last night. Justy, that's why you probably didn't get an investigative report on Dodgy, but I didn't receive the redirect ability. What sells me that dodgy has a copycat power is this. It probably randomly assigns someone an ability of his choosing, that's why I only got one. Based upon the targeting last night, I think Harb redirected himself, this signifies that someone who targeted you also targeted Harb (which was me). However, Harb also died last night which means since I did not receive a redirect, then Dodgy must have also visited him. If that's the case, then he could well be mafia because someone needed to kill Harb. Now, it could also be you, but I'll explain why I think Dodgy is our final choice.


Sorry, I don't follow you here. First of all I did get redirected last night from dodgy to Harb. That means that Harb targeted either you or Dodgy, if you both targeted me. And why are you saying that Harb didn't target dodgy because dodgy didn't get redirect power? Does that mean you got notified that you were redirected? I don't think one knows they receive that power.

If you got info that you were harder to detect, but didn't get redirected, that is odd. I guess it's possible that there's some sort of copycat power in place. But why haven't we heard anything from that power earlier? How does that explain the odd message Sjg received? Did dodgy copy his own power?

My biggest concern here is that I don't see what was the point of this misdirection? What information did you gain from coming to D4 scum-reading me, instead of telling that you send those messages and your reasoning behind them? Or why wasn't you able to explain it last night? I'm thinking that you're just trying to get whichever of dodgy or I to swithc our votes. At the behinning of D4, you thought that I was going to vote you because I didn't want to give you info N3. Now you saw my hesitation and decided to change your target to dodgy.

Outside of the mechanics, I think Dodgy's behavior yesterday was quite odd. I'm surprised you didn't come into today questioning dodgy about this, but he arbitrarily chooses a time to come in and vote red + end day. I think this signifies him as scum. He attempts to end the game in one swoop instead of going through more days. Instead of adhering to the plan (we let Harb vote Justy), he messes with it. Now, I don't know the specifics of what happened to the vote yesterday, but I do know that for some reason the scenario did not follow through with the rules, so that indicates to me that either the rules were misunderstood or someone had an ability to inflate the voting in one way or the other. I think it's the former though, nothing really proves the latter.


That vote did odd, and my first reaction was to scum-read dodgy for it. But then I realized that it shouldn't really matter who made the votes and ended the day, Harb or dodgy, if we were going for 4-way tie result. But I tend to agree that we just misunderstood the rules. But why did you say in your night message that your plan was messed by dodgy's vote? What was the play you were playing D3 before dodgy ended the day? Specifically, you said this: "Dodgy threw a huge corkscrew into my plan due to a secondary power I have". What was the plan?

So anyways, I did send both those messages, but I never sent the message to sjg, which makes me believe that Dodgy is mafia as he's the only one to gain from that action. Considering he utilized that reason to vote against me, it makes complete sense why he would do it.


As I said, I think dodgy being able to send that message to Sjg is more unlikely than that you send it for some reason I just don't understand. It's possible, but if that's what happened, dodgy also needed to somehow twist the result of your cop ability.

However, I don't really understand why scum gets cop ability, unless Sjg was right and it's some sort of fake cop ability. It's difficult situation: town-reading dodgy mechanically requires trusting your ability, but if dodgy is town then you're scum and you having cop ability is odd.
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