Mafia CLVI: Charity Mafia: -- Pure of Heart Win!

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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 08 Dec 2016, 17:29

sjg11 wrote:
Telleo wrote:First, while I also don't like Con's methods for disagreeing (re:busdriver), but I don't see it as contradictory to his normal position. He still is arguing in favor of using the vig kill, which is standard for him, just not in favor of controlling it. Where is the contradiction you see? Why is this worth a vote?

Supporting vig kills is one thing, what condude is doing here is supporting random, uncontrolled vig kills which is something totally different and which is far, far more dangerous to the town.


Sure, and I disagree with him on that point. But your argument makes it seem like this is something that's out of character for Condude, which I don't think it is. He is usually in favor of vig kills, isn't he? Why does his position in this game stand out as a difference compared to previous play?

sjg11 wrote:
Second, I'm also concerned by Thingy's opposition to the plan. It concerns me a lot more than Condudes, because it's full of generalizations and platitudes and doesn't engage with any specifics. These are issues I know you're seen - you responded to them. Why does Condude take priority over Thingy for you?

They're both arguing similar positions and I believe that condude would have a bigger issue with uncontrolled vig kills than he actually has. That takes precedent over Thingy when I'm not as sure on that point as I am with condude.


See above. What makes you think Condude would have a problem with uncontrolled vig kills? That's his normal, status quo position.

Also, please compare Thyrfing and Condude, and actually talk about Thryfing a little bit. What don't you like about his argument? You felt it was worth mentioning alongside your vote of Con, but you're not going to talk about why it's potentially scummy? I don't like his position either, but does his position alone make him scum? Is it something about his argument? What's going on in Sjg's head?
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 08 Dec 2016, 17:30

Hello everyone.

I didn't have much time to think about this game before it started, as Fable is still going on. My initial thoughts were that this is going to be chaotic game where things happen without much control, and town try to do their best to win by analyzing night's events next day. I'm OK with that kind of game, as it could be fun even if it wouldn't give us the best chances for win.

However, after reading through the first five pages, I kind of like the idea of one player revealing that they will target our second place in lynch votes for possible vig kills, and that another player targets town's choice for protetction. I'd suggest we use blue-voting similar to what happened in Immunity Idol to choose our protected target. That could give us more voting data, and disencourage scum from targeting our top town read for NK (as I assume it's possible we don't have any protective roles who could prevent the NK from happening).


Other than that, Sjg with his 7-2 ratio talk is good target for vote. His explanation could be legit, but I have to say it caught my attention. Plus, he was using this ratio quite confidently to defend his arguments. I'd expect more caveats if he really was just guessing.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 08 Dec 2016, 17:41

justy wrote:Hello everyone.

I didn't have much time to think about this game before it started, as Fable is still going on. My initial thoughts were that this is going to be chaotic game where things happen without much control, and town try to do their best to win by analyzing night's events next day. I'm OK with that kind of game, as it could be fun even if it wouldn't give us the best chances for win.

However, after reading through the first five pages, I kind of like the idea of one player revealing that they will target our second place in lynch votes for possible vig kills, and that another player targets town's choice for protetction. I'd suggest we use blue-voting similar to what happened in Immunity Idol to choose our protected target. That could give us more voting data, and disencourage scum from targeting our top town read for NK (as I assume it's possible we don't have any protective roles who could prevent the NK from happening).


Other than that, Sjg with his 7-2 ratio talk is good target for vote. His explanation could be legit, but I have to say it caught my attention. Plus, he was using this ratio quite confidently to defend his arguments. I'd expect more caveats if he really was just guessing.


So you've seen Sjg's explanation. You've also, I must assume, seen my ongoing discourse with him. Would you like to weigh in on that, or is this the only thing for you? Do you think his explanation of the 7-2 ratio doesn't make sense? If not, why not? If it "could be legit," why are you voting him?
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 08 Dec 2016, 17:49

Telleo wrote:
sjg11 wrote:
Telleo wrote:First, while I also don't like Con's methods for disagreeing (re:busdriver), but I don't see it as contradictory to his normal position. He still is arguing in favor of using the vig kill, which is standard for him, just not in favor of controlling it. Where is the contradiction you see? Why is this worth a vote?

Supporting vig kills is one thing, what condude is doing here is supporting random, uncontrolled vig kills which is something totally different and which is far, far more dangerous to the town.


Sure, and I disagree with him on that point. But your argument makes it seem like this is something that's out of character for Condude, which I don't think it is. He is usually in favor of vig kills, isn't he? Why does his position in this game stand out as a difference compared to previous play?

The reason why he is usually in favour of vig kills is because they can be used to remove inactives/ scummy players in the game. This does not apply in this game because the vig kills are largely uncontrolled. The thing is that condude has shown an understanding of this distinction in his posts, hence why he considered the reveal a player and then Doc him argument. However, his overall conclusion has been that we should allow for uncontrolled vig kills. This IS a departure from condude's normal position and it is one which he has also shown an understanding of within the game.

sjg11 wrote:
Second, I'm also concerned by Thingy's opposition to the plan. It concerns me a lot more than Condudes, because it's full of generalizations and platitudes and doesn't engage with any specifics. These are issues I know you're seen - you responded to them. Why does Condude take priority over Thingy for you?

They're both arguing similar positions and I believe that condude would have a bigger issue with uncontrolled vig kills than he actually has. That takes precedent over Thingy when I'm not as sure on that point as I am with condude.


See above. What makes you think Condude would have a problem with uncontrolled vig kills? That's his normal, status quo position.

Also, please compare Thyrfing and Condude, and actually talk about Thryfing a little bit. What don't you like about his argument? You felt it was worth mentioning alongside your vote of Con, but you're not going to talk about why it's potentially scummy? I don't like his position either, but does his position alone make him scum? Is it something about his argument? What's going on in Sjg's head?

The main point of Thyrfing's argument is very similar to condude's namely that the vig plan could be disrupted by an unlikely busdriver role (for the record I also feel that condude would be more alert to the unlikeliness of a busdriver in the game than Thingy would given condude's greater experience as a GM).

It's also largely because I don't get why people would oppose my plan and allow for potentially uncontrolled vig kills within the game. The fact that two players have done so already, for fairly weak reasons, worries me. Hence the vote.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 08 Dec 2016, 17:51

Telleo wrote:
justy wrote:Hello everyone.

I didn't have much time to think about this game before it started, as Fable is still going on. My initial thoughts were that this is going to be chaotic game where things happen without much control, and town try to do their best to win by analyzing night's events next day. I'm OK with that kind of game, as it could be fun even if it wouldn't give us the best chances for win.

However, after reading through the first five pages, I kind of like the idea of one player revealing that they will target our second place in lynch votes for possible vig kills, and that another player targets town's choice for protetction. I'd suggest we use blue-voting similar to what happened in Immunity Idol to choose our protected target. That could give us more voting data, and disencourage scum from targeting our top town read for NK (as I assume it's possible we don't have any protective roles who could prevent the NK from happening).


Other than that, Sjg with his 7-2 ratio talk is good target for vote. His explanation could be legit, but I have to say it caught my attention. Plus, he was using this ratio quite confidently to defend his arguments. I'd expect more caveats if he really was just guessing.


So you've seen Sjg's explanation. You've also, I must assume, seen my ongoing discourse with him. Would you like to weigh in on that, or is this the only thing for you? Do you think his explanation of the 7-2 ratio doesn't make sense? If not, why not? If it "could be legit," why are you voting him?


I have to vote someone, and I think Sjg's possible slip is the most promising target at the moment. I don't really have anything to weigh in on your discussion with Sjg, because I don't think that I've ever played with Condude in a game with Vigs and don't know wether Sjg's concerns with Condude's opinion here are legit or not.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 08 Dec 2016, 17:52

justy wrote:Other than that, Sjg with his 7-2 ratio talk is good target for vote. His explanation could be legit, but I have to say it caught my attention. Plus, he was using this ratio quite confidently to defend his arguments. I'd expect more caveats if he really was just guessing.

1. Why do you think my explanation is less likely than the narrative where it's a scumslip?
2. I wasn't guessing. That's slightly distorting my point. I'm very confident that we're looking at a 7:2 ratio because my knowledge of GMing games tells me that that is, by far, the most likely ratio in the game without making the game ridiculously unbalanced either well. A 6:3 with an uncontrolled vig kill is so hard for the town to win it would be ridiculous and, if it's the case, we may as well just give the game to the Mafia already.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby sjg11 » 08 Dec 2016, 18:00

justy wrote:I have to vote someone, and I think Sjg's possible slip is the most promising target at the moment. I don't really have anything to weigh in on your discussion with Sjg, because I don't think that I've ever played with Condude in a game with Vigs and don't know wether Sjg's concerns with Condude's opinion here are legit or not.

Why do you feel compelled to vote early in this game? This seems like a bit of a deviation from your normal meta where you tend to wait a while before voting on Day One?
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 08 Dec 2016, 18:00

justy wrote:I have to vote someone,


Do you have to vote someone? In your first post of the game? I wasn't aware of that rule.

justy wrote: and I think Sjg's possible slip is the most promising target at the moment.


Are there other targets you are considering? What makes them less promising?

justy wrote: I don't really have anything to weigh in on your discussion with Sjg, because I don't think that I've ever played with Condude in a game with Vigs and don't know wether Sjg's concerns with Condude's opinion here are legit or not.


Is my discussion with Sjg solely focused on Condude?

Additional question: Did you notice the 7-2 thing yourself, or did you see my vote, and decide you liked it?

@Sjg: I saw your response, I'll get to it in a minute - I need to reread Condude and evaluate, just wanted to fire this off quickly before I do.

Also, how convenient is it that ATM literally all of Condude's posts are on Page 1 (and make up the entire page one) of the Read-by-author? Makes my life much easier.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby justy » 08 Dec 2016, 18:08

sjg11 wrote:
justy wrote:Other than that, Sjg with his 7-2 ratio talk is good target for vote. His explanation could be legit, but I have to say it caught my attention. Plus, he was using this ratio quite confidently to defend his arguments. I'd expect more caveats if he really was just guessing.

1. Why do you think my explanation is less likely than the narrative where it's a scumslip?
2. I wasn't guessing. That's slightly distorting my point. I'm very confident that we're looking at a 7:2 ratio because my knowledge of GMing games tells me that that is, by far, the most likely ratio in the game without making the game ridiculously unbalanced either well. A 6:3 with an uncontrolled vig kill is so hard for the town to win it would be ridiculous and, if it's the case, we may as well just give the game to the Mafia already.


1. Because you talked about it so confidently that it seemed to be sure knowledge, not your favourite theory.
2. Have you ever seen a game where power roles distort this normal ratio? Isn't this game, with heavy focus on power roles, possibly one of them? Why are you sure there's a vig in this game?

PPE: @Sjg: I discussed the topic of voting early in previous game with ZZ and was somewhat convinced by his arguments supporting it. Though I might as well try it in this one. Especially as I felt that this could be a quick and fun game with less thinking and more action.

@Telleo: Considering my first post was quite late into day, and what I explained above, I felt that I should vote, yes. Plus, what Sjg wrote looked like a possible scum slip.

Besides his possible slip, there's not really anything that caught my attention. Without it being there, I doubt I'd have voted anyone in that post. So "the most promising" could be easily replased with "the only".

I saw 7-2 thing myself but read through what Sjg said after that to see if he'd comment on it more. I think there's certain contemplative tone in his original post that indicates that instead of slip, it could be just his favourite scenario, as he now says. But in his later posts, he seem to be talking about MYLO scenarios in more confident manner, which is odd if he doesn't know how many scum there are.
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Re: Charity Mafia: Day 1

Postby Telleo » 08 Dec 2016, 18:12

sjg11 wrote:
Telleo wrote:Sure, and I disagree with him on that point. But your argument makes it seem like this is something that's out of character for Condude, which I don't think it is. He is usually in favor of vig kills, isn't he? Why does his position in this game stand out as a difference compared to previous play?


The reason why he is usually in favour of vig kills is because they can be used to remove inactives/ scummy players in the game. This does not apply in this game because the vig kills are largely uncontrolled. The thing is that condude has shown an understanding of this distinction in his posts, hence why he considered the reveal a player and then Doc him argument. However, his overall conclusion has been that we should allow for uncontrolled vig kills. This IS a departure from condude's normal position and it is one which he has also shown an understanding of within the game.


Telleo wrote:See above. What makes you think Condude would have a problem with uncontrolled vig kills? That's his normal, status quo position.

Also, please compare Thyrfing and Condude, and actually talk about Thryfing a little bit. What don't you like about his argument? You felt it was worth mentioning alongside your vote of Con, but you're not going to talk about why it's potentially scummy? I don't like his position either, but does his position alone make him scum? Is it something about his argument? What's going on in Sjg's head?

The main point of Thyrfing's argument is very similar to condude's namely that the vig plan could be disrupted by an unlikely busdriver role (for the record I also feel that condude would be more alert to the unlikeliness of a busdriver in the game than Thingy would given condude's greater experience as a GM).

It's also largely because I don't get why people would oppose my plan and allow for potentially uncontrolled vig kills within the game. The fact that two players have done so already, for fairly weak reasons, worries me. Hence the vote.



Okay. This satisfies me, at least until Condude shows up to argue for himself. I see where you are seeing a contradiction - I was tending to view Condude's pro-vig stance as a more general thing, but you're correct that his stated reasons are usually the effectiveness against inactives. You are correct to point out that Condude's consideration of control over the vig kill seems to indicate that he understands the difference between this and normal vig kills. Personally I think such consideration weakens your point, in that he's clearly trying to think about this issue from a new perspective, and coming to a different conclusion than you isn't necessarily scummy. That said, I'd like to hear from Condude, particularly once he's seen your ratio analysis.

Which by the way, I was in the middle of responding to that analysis when I noticed the 7-2 thing, so I'm gonna go back and do that now.
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