Mafia CLIII: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby Conq » 03 Oct 2016, 21:49

shadowfriend1 wrote:But why is this a scumtell? If my play here isn't as smart as you were expecting, you gained that expectation from a game where I was scum. Now you think I'm playing differently, so how is that a scumtell? I just don't get it.

As you'll see from my post above, my read is not that I think you are acting differently than when you played with me as scum.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby asudevil » 03 Oct 2016, 21:52

Conq wrote:
If we can get one of our Larges to abstain, it will be pretty easy to arrange the vote n vs. n+1. Truly, in a game with one scum member, voting data really isn't all that valuable anyway. There won't be late switches to save a partner. No bussing. No relationships to deduce. Just one lonely scum trying to survive.



I don't know if the scum will for sure lie...and just because we have 2 smalls alive...doesn't mean they are both town...And there can be extra kills, that doesn't necessarily clear both smalls as town...unless Im missing something.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby asudevil » 03 Oct 2016, 21:53

shadowfriend1 wrote:Defense to what, asu? Defense to Conq thinking I'm dumb and therefore scum without saying why he thinks I'm dumb or why that makes me scum? (that was some beautiful rhyming :) ). There is really nothing I can do unless you or him states why any of this is a scumtell.

And how is it inconceivable that I have class on a Monday? I'm not a professional online mafia player.

By all means, fire questions at me if you have them. I can't make a 'defense' if you haven't made a case.


Had time for that though...but still no time really to make a case against anyone...so you aren't so busy afterall...are you.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby asudevil » 03 Oct 2016, 21:58

Conq wrote:I find these statements from you to be a scum tell for a few reasons:

(1) It seems inauthentic. You say you are having really strong feelings (e.g., "awful implications," "terrify," "torn," this stated back-and-forth that is going on like torture in your mind), but you don't flesh them out. If you are in such turmoil over this decision, why do you state none of the supposed "awful implications"? You say later that it will make small townies targets if scum is large. Is that it? Is the entirety of these "awful implications" the fact that scum gets one sure night kill? Even without reveals, a Large Scum would get a night kill if he or she hits 2/3 of the possible roles. Your emotion comes across as faked to me because you are telling us how emotional this is all making you, without much clarity as to why. Maybe you can clear up the "why" for us now.

(2) It seems completely wrong. To me, the decision for Town to reveal our roles seemed so blatantly obvious that I am having trouble understanding this statement from Town Shadow's perspective. If Town did not reveal our roles, we would have risked massive casualties. Small Townies wouldn't know who to visit without dying. Large Townies would likely kill whomever they visited. And, even worse, when we wake up on Day 2 with all of our Small Townies dead and perhaps more carnage, we would not know how to evaluate what happened.

(3) It seems like a hedge. I might be able to understand this better from Town Shadow's perspective if you came out strong in favor of infosecurity and you had well thought-out reasons. But here you throw cold water on role reveals with vague and untold notions of "awful implications," while still saying that you're going back-and-forth on this issue in your mind.

To me, this looks like insincere, hedgy, anti-town behavior. It looks like what Scum Shadow might say.


I like all of this +1 from me. I just couldn't clarify it quite as well. And now we can start a counterwagon on scum asu buddying up to clearly town Conq...Im digging this only 1 scum thing so that if Im right about Shadow...he can't get a scum chum to start this counter-wagon.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby Conq » 03 Oct 2016, 22:15

asudevil wrote:
Conq wrote:
If we can get one of our Larges to abstain, it will be pretty easy to arrange the vote n vs. n+1. Truly, in a game with one scum member, voting data really isn't all that valuable anyway. There won't be late switches to save a partner. No bussing. No relationships to deduce. Just one lonely scum trying to survive.

I don't know if the scum will for sure lie...and just because we have 2 smalls alive...doesn't mean they are both town...And there can be extra kills, that doesn't necessarily clear both smalls as town...unless Im missing something.

I agree that scum may not have lied about their role. I also agree that the two claimed Smalls are not necessarily Town.

Here is how we would clear known True Smalls as Town:

If a Medium dies tonight, then all known smalls are clear. The only way that a Medium dies at night is if a Large visited them. If all Town are being honest about their role (we have to assume they are) then the only way a Medium dies at night is if a Large Scum visits the Medium.

But the only way to clear Smalls in that scenario is to know they are True Smalls. We do that by arranging the vote so that we know if one of our Smalls is lying to us:

Vote Leader #1: Small, Small (6)
Vote Leader #2: Medium, Medium, Large (5)
Abstain: Large

If all town are telling us the truth (as we'd expect), and scum has more of a reason to lie and say they are smaller than they are (as I'd also expect), we will learn if our smalls are actually smalls at the vote.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby shadowface » 03 Oct 2016, 22:20

Conq wrote:(1) It seems inauthentic. You say you are having really strong feelings (e.g., "awful implications," "terrify," "torn," this stated back-and-forth that is going on like torture in your mind), but you don't flesh them out. If you are in such turmoil over this decision, why do you state none of the supposed "awful implications"?

I tried to, but then what I was writing got very confusing because of the very nature of me not really being able to weigh the advantages above the disadvantages or vice versa. If I had posted my thoughts, it would have been a relatively nonsensical list, so instead I posted that I was having trouble making up my mind, but I thought a reveal would be too costly. I also assumed that some of the problems with a reveal were relatively self evident (and I did post, twice, the ones that I thought were most important).

Conq wrote: You say later that it will make small townies targets if scum is large. Is that it? Is the entirety of these "awful implications" the fact that scum gets one sure night kill? Even without reveals, a Large Scum would get a night kill if he or she hits 2/3 of the possible roles. Your emotion comes across as faked to me because you are telling us how emotional this is all making you, without much clarity as to why. Maybe you can clear up the "why" for us now.

Yeah, clarity always accompanies emotion. No, in all seriousness, you are reading far too much emotion into what was more confusion.
If you don't believe me, though, why is this a scumtell at all? Do you think as scum I wouldn't have ever considered any of the pros and cons of reveals? Why fake this emotion at all? It seems more likely that you are simply misinterpreting my tone, not understanding why I would have that tone, and then saying it must be a scumtell. But there would be no reason for me to do that as scum.

Conq wrote:(2) It seems completely wrong. To me, the decision for Town to reveal our roles seemed so blatantly obvious that I am having trouble understanding this statement from Town Shadow's perspective. If Town did not reveal our roles, we would have risked massive casualties. Small Townies wouldn't know who to visit without dying. Large Townies would likely kill whomever they visited. And, even worse, when we wake up on Day 2 with all of our Small Townies dead and perhaps more carnage, we would not know how to evaluate what happened.


To answer the second part of Question 1 as well, the danger of revealing roles was that a large scum can claim to be small. Then, in the night he not only gets to target one of the guaranteed small townies, but those townies will also explicitly target him, thinking he's small. It opens the pool of small players to a rampage by the scum, which I saw as very undesirable.
Conq, when I consider it after reading your posts, I see more of the benefits of role reveals. I hadn't considered that we would have the opportunity to weed out a large scum hiding with the smalls; I considered the 'vote data' people thought we would generate as a much weaker tool, as it usually is in small games.

Conq wrote:(3) It seems like a hedge. I might be able to understand this better from Town Shadow's perspective if you came out strong in favor of infosecurity and you had well thought-out reasons. But here you throw cold water on role reveals with vague and untold notions of "awful implications," while still saying that you're going back-and-forth on this issue in your mind.

To me, this looks like insincere, hedgy, anti-town behavior. It looks like what Scum Shadow might say.

Hedgy? Sure! I wasn't remotely, and never claimed to be in the slightest, certain about the pros and cons of revealing our sizes. Uncertainty is not a scumtell, it's just honest. If couldn't come out with a strong case for how to protect info-security because I didn't have one. What you're missing is that I also didn't have a strong case for revealing roles, as I discussed in answer to your second questions. I was hoping that someone would come up with a strong case for either side, and when the town agreed to reveal, I revealed.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby shadowface » 03 Oct 2016, 22:26

asudevil wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:Defense to what, asu? Defense to Conq thinking I'm dumb and therefore scum without saying why he thinks I'm dumb or why that makes me scum? (that was some beautiful rhyming :) ). There is really nothing I can do unless you or him states why any of this is a scumtell.

And how is it inconceivable that I have class on a Monday? I'm not a professional online mafia player.

By all means, fire questions at me if you have them. I can't make a 'defense' if you haven't made a case.


Had time for that though...but still no time really to make a case against anyone...so you aren't so busy afterall...are you.

I got into class fifteen minutes early and checked the thread. You expected me to make a case in that time?
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby asudevil » 03 Oct 2016, 22:58

shadow wrote:To answer the second part of Question 1 as well, the danger of revealing roles was that a large scum can claim to be small. Then, in the night he not only gets to target one of the guaranteed small townies, but those townies will also explicitly target him, thinking he's small. It opens the pool of small players to a rampage by the scum, which I saw as very undesirable.


Which is why I wouldn't have smalls target smalls...they will target a medium
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby shadowface » 03 Oct 2016, 23:06

Conq wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:But why is this a scumtell? If my play here isn't as smart as you were expecting, you gained that expectation from a game where I was scum. Now you think I'm playing differently, so how is that a scumtell? I just don't get it.

As you'll see from my post above, my read is not that I think you are acting differently than when you played with me as scum.

But that's what you said:

Conq wrote:...this post from ShadowFriend strikes me as much less logical and thoughtful than my perception of ShadowFriend.


Conq: From where did you get the perception of me as logical and thoughtful when I'm town and less logical and thoughtful when I'm scum?

You see, I'm just not. Literally none of my past games suggest this, especially the one I played with Conq where I was, according to him, a rational player... as mafia. The only way Conq could get this perception of my play is if he's intentionally looking to pick a fight. Conq of all people is definitely smarter than this. I've asked him repeatedly to explain why he thought this, but he won't. And I understand why - there is no answer.

Conq

for the following reasons:
  • Conq's initial impression of me was impossible to get from the perspective of a sincere player. There is no way he could have had a high expectation of my town play and a bad impression of my scum play, given that he's only played with me as mafia (and said I played rationally there). Even if he did read my town games, there is literally no way one could walk away with the impression of me being good with logic and mechanics two years ago (about the last game I finished as town). Look at any of my past games to see.
  • The only reason Conq would want to lie about this is if he wanted to push a mislynch. I was a pretty good target because I was posting quite a bit, opening the door to activity bias (ie. we're probably not going to lynch sjg today, even though he could be scummy as hell).
  • I was also an easy target because I had thought differently then the rest of the players concerning size reveals. It's easy to try to lynch someone's who's different, but it doesn't mean that being different = scum.
  • He equates me being confused with me faking emotion, and then tries to use this to lynch me. It's another example, in his case on me (which has been a large part of his contribution) of not really caring about whether something is a scumtell or not, so long as it fits his narrative. If you're not careful, it's easy to believe that narrative = scumtell, but Conq knows better than that. He's trying to get anyone not reading critically to equate the two.

    I really encourage every player to look at Conq's case on me and wonder how much of it is actually evidence, and how much is just narrative.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby Conq » 03 Oct 2016, 23:48

shadowfriend1 wrote:
Conq wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:But why is this a scumtell? If my play here isn't as smart as you were expecting, you gained that expectation from a game where I was scum. Now you think I'm playing differently, so how is that a scumtell? I just don't get it.

As you'll see from my post above, my read is not that I think you are acting differently than when you played with me as scum.

But that's what you said:

Conq wrote:...this post from ShadowFriend strikes me as much less logical and thoughtful than my perception of ShadowFriend.


Conq: From where did you get the perception of me as logical and thoughtful when I'm town and less logical and thoughtful when I'm scum?

No, it's not what I said.

Shadow, you have turned my case against you into a strawman. You are saying my case against you is that you play logically as town and less logically when you are scum. That is not my case. I have never said that, and I certainly did not say it in the quote you pull above.

My argument that you are scum came from three impressions about one post. As I explained, I thought you exhibited (a) insincere emotion, (b) an attempt to prevent town from doing an obvious pro-town thing, and (c) "hedginess." My coment about your earlier play relates to the second impression. I believe you have the capacity to understand basic strategy and to consider the advantages and disadvantages of various mechanics. That helps inform the second impression because it makes me think that if you are attempting to sway the town away from doing a pro-town thing, you are doing so purposefully; and it's not just negligence.

Now, I've admitted that my read is preliminary. We still have very little to go on at this point. But I have stated my reasons clearly. My reasons do not include some perception that you play logically as town and illogically as scum. That would be a nutty, nonsensical case. It's not my case.
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