Mafia CLIII: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

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Mafia CLIII: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby condude1 » 01 Oct 2016, 19:59

After what was a very short night for all involved, 6 people rise right before the crack of dawn, anxious to begin today's proceedings, to determine who should be thrown under Condude's feet. Five of you look at each other nervously, wondering who could possibly be so cruel as to enjoy an event like this. At the same time, the dissident was trying to hold back his euphoria that his plan was underway...

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Link to the rules.

Roster:

1. UsernamePending
2. Jordan767
3. Asudevil
4. sjg11
5. shadowfriend1
6. Conq

Day 1 has begun, it will end at 2:00 PM PDT, Tuesday October 4th. A link to the countdown clock is here.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby asudevil » 01 Oct 2016, 20:10

Hey all.

So I think the only real question here is do we need to reveal our sizes...so that we can organize stomping so that we don't end up all killing each other tonight.

I lean towards yes. Cause I would imagine the scum picked large so that he can't get accidentally killed at night. Plus then he is "guaranteed" a kill every night.

Although as I say this ... he may have gone small so that he controls the game as early as 3 people left if 2 giants are left.

But I still would lean on a full reveal of sizes cause then we can verify who is what size at night, and make sure the votes "add up"

Anyway, I haven't played a scum game in a long time. I am hoping this wraps up quick cause I leave for a vacation in a week, but figure this game should be able to wrap up before that.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby shadowface » 01 Oct 2016, 20:43

asudevil wrote:Although as I say this ... he may have gone small so that he controls the game as early as 3 people left if 2 giants are left.

But I still would lean on a full reveal of sizes cause then we can verify who is what size at night, and make sure the votes "add up"

Anyway, I haven't played a scum game in a long time. I am hoping this wraps up quick cause I leave for a vacation in a week, but figure this game should be able to wrap up before that.

I feel like whenever I wonder if revealing sizes would be a good idea, all of the awful implications of that terrify me. So then I flip back to supposing we should keep our sizes secret, but then I realize all the advantages of claiming. Huh. :|
I am kind of torn about this issue, but from what I've considered as a whole I don't think claiming is a good idea.

asudevil wrote:Cause I would imagine the scum picked large so that he can't get accidentally killed at night. Plus then he is "guaranteed" a kill every night.

Are you suggesting large size could be a scum-tell?
This seems to be a problematic tell, firstly because why would a townie not want to be accidentally killed at night too?
Secondly, I doubt the scum would tell the truth about his role. He could just refuse to reveal, because judging by how implementing plans that need the whole town involved has always gone in the past, I'd bet not all of the townies are going to be on board for this, especially because of the significant problems with a claim. Like, any little powerful townies will be instant targets for a medium or large scum. Small size is basically a power role, and you wouldn't normally dream of calling all of your power roles out Day 1.

One advantage is that if we really do know everyone's size, we could keep smalls targeting smalls, larges targeting larges, mediums targeting mediums, so we don't kill each other by accident. However, the big flaw with this is that the scum will surely break this plan if they are large or medium, and try to hide with the smalls to kill them. In fact, I think if we tried to do this we might just be giving the scum an incentive to lie.
Thoughts?
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby asudevil » 01 Oct 2016, 21:39

shadowfriend1 wrote:Are you suggesting large size could be a scum-tell?
...I don't know what the scum tell would be. But I want to get someone LOCKED into a choice right now. So then if the votes don't start matching...(cause he's large and claimed small or whatever) we can start narrowing down our pool of scum candidates.

This seems to be a problematic tell, firstly because why would a townie not want to be accidentally killed at night too?


Cause town doesn't win the night game...and townies should be trying to LIMIT the number of people who get killed...town wins the day game and getting extra votes in the day is what matters most

Secondly, I doubt the scum would tell the truth about his role.


AWESOME...the more they lie...the better. Cause then if we get a close vote based on the weighting we "know" it should be...either he has to make a shit late flip to hide that he lied about his weight...or the vote goes the wrong way. And we just cut our scum possibles down.

He could just refuse to reveal, because judging by how implementing plans that need the whole town involved has always gone in the past, I'd bet not all of the townies are going to be on board for this, especially because of the significant problems with a claim. Like, any little powerful townies will be instant targets for a medium or large scum. Small size is basically a power role, and you wouldn't normally dream of calling all of your power roles out Day 1.


Its 6 of us. We should be able to get this organized easier than normal. And yes, small towns being a "power" role we don't want to reveal in a normal game. But in a normal game, townies (unless there is a vig...and we frequently tell vigs not to shoot night one) can't kill other townies. So preventing a large/medium townie from killing a "power" small townie...or even worse, a small townie killing himself going against a LARGE...is good for the town. The biggest issue in the night game...isn't the scum killing off smalls...its the town killing off multiple of their own people. The only way this game ends for the scum in day 2 is if we get multiple townies getting stomped tonight. And ... if we get organized and watch a small killed off...then we know that the scum is either a large/medium and was honest...or claimed small and lied...all acceptable things...Because its more info.

One advantage is that if we really do know everyone's size, we could keep smalls targeting smalls, larges targeting larges, mediums targeting mediums, so we don't kill each other by accident. However, the big flaw with this is that the scum will surely break this plan if they are large or medium, and try to hide with the smalls to kill them. In fact, I think if we tried to do this we might just be giving the scum an incentive to lie.
Thoughts?


Yes, the scum will lie...the scum will lie anyway...but if he's a small...he risks a LOT...cause he can get stomped by everyone...and has to attack and may attack a large. We want to force him into lies that we can catch him in later.

I really do think the best move is a full reveal of sizes. But will wait to hear from others before I go off half-cocked.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby shadowface » 01 Oct 2016, 22:28

asudevil wrote:
shadowfriend1 wrote:Are you suggesting large size could be a scum-tell?
...I don't know what the scum tell would be.

I thought you were implying that the scum would be more likely than town to choose large, thus being large inherently would be a scumtell.
asudevil wrote:Cause town doesn't win the night game...and townies should be trying to LIMIT the number of people who get killed...town wins the day game and getting extra votes in the day is what matters most

Is it, though? There are definitely advantages to the town for having more weight in the lynch, but I dispute that a town player would necessarily rather trust the collective vote than their own views. I think that in this game the town doesn't lose much in the night game, because each player has the same potential fire power, town or scum. I think in this setup we need to revisit the assumption that the day belongs to the town and the night belongs to the scum.

I'd like to hear from everyone whether they think someone's choice in size can be alignment indicative. Personally I don't think the sizes are more powerful for one faction or another, except for the 'hide' ability that the scum has, which is an incentive for the scum to choose small. In this way, asu, small scum isn't nearly as vulnerable as a small townie would be, because even a one-time use power like that is immensely powerful in such a short game.

asudevil wrote:
Secondly, I doubt the scum would tell the truth about his role.


AWESOME...the more they lie...the better. Cause then if we get a close vote based on the weighting we "know" it should be...either he has to make a shit late flip to hide that he lied about his weight...or the vote goes the wrong way. And we just cut our scum possibles down.

Could you walk me through the mechanics of how me might get this data? It seems like we would be able to at first glance, but if a vote does go the wrong way, it could have been someone on either side skewing it. Also, this game is going to be really short (probably ~2 day phases, maybe 3) so I don't know if we'll have an opportunity to analyze data.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby asudevil » 01 Oct 2016, 23:43

shadowfriend1 wrote:I thought you were implying that the scum would be more likely than town to choose large, thus being large inherently would be a scumtell.


I do think scum more likely would chose large...but not so much that its a scum tell.

asudevil wrote:Cause town doesn't win the night game...and townies should be trying to LIMIT the number of people who get killed...town wins the day game and getting extra votes in the day is what matters most

Is it, though? There are definitely advantages to the town for having more weight in the lynch, but I dispute that a town player would necessarily rather trust the collective vote than their own views. I think that in this game the town doesn't lose much in the night game, because each player has the same potential fire power, town or scum. I think in this setup we need to revisit the assumption that the day belongs to the town and the night belongs to the scum.[/quote]

Under that theory we would tell vigs to "trust themselves" and let shots fly every night. Instead of what we currently do which is to ask them to not shoot.

In this way, asu, small scum isn't nearly as vulnerable as a small townie would be, because even a one-time use power like that is immensely powerful in such a short game.


One time use...agreed...so Im not THAT worried about it


quote="asudevil"]
Secondly, I doubt the scum would tell the truth about his role.


AWESOME...the more they lie...the better. Cause then if we get a close vote based on the weighting we "know" it should be...either he has to make a shit late flip to hide that he lied about his weight...or the vote goes the wrong way. And we just cut our scum possibles down.

Could you walk me through the mechanics of how me might get this data? It seems like we would be able to at first glance, but if a vote does go the wrong way, it could have been someone on either side skewing it. Also, this game is going to be really short (probably ~2 day phases, maybe 3) so I don't know if we'll have an opportunity to analyze data.[/quote]

Any town who is lying and fucks up the weighting...means we deserve to lose. If we agree to a reveal. No townie should be lying about it.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby Jordan767 » 02 Oct 2016, 00:34

Yo.

First, I just want to say that this is my first full game. Do with that what you will, but just bear it in mind. I have read some completed game threads, but that by no means makes me an expert.

I think size reveals are a good thing. That way we can actually understand/use vote data and keep from accidentally killing anyone at night. This also traps scum with a (very potentially false) story they need to stick to for the rest of the game.

I also think scum would be more likely to pick large, for 2 reasons: they're immune to NKs, and they can lie and let small people kill themselves by targeting them. Not sure if that makes it a scumtell because I'm not sure really what the term's threshold is, but I think it definitely makes that person more likely scum.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby UsernamePending » 02 Oct 2016, 02:54

Morning all, should mention vacation waylaying was undone so I'm in VT right now. I'll participate when I can.

This feels strangely familiar.

I think that at the end of the day, our sizes should be revealed by votecount anyway, so I don't think outing sizes will make much a difference.

As for sizes being alignment indictive, I'd say nay. I came into this game planning regardless of role to take the same size. I'm interested to know if I'm the only one who planned such.

I'll work on getting deep into dissection when I'm at more than a gas station, but be assured I'll be here.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby Conq » 02 Oct 2016, 03:09

Hi team,

I am not going to be around for a while, but I just want to say:

-> I heavily favor size reveals. I think the advantages clearly outweigh the disadvantages. The only disadvantage that I see is that scum can plan his night stomp to kill more easily if he knows our sizes. But so what. The bad guy stomp (if he choose Large or Medium) is just one death, and scum will likely be able to choose correctly anyway after the lynch vote. We gain a lot more from revealing.

-> I have a few ideas of what we can do once we know everyone's size, but I don't want to discuss them until everyone has revealed.

-> If you are town, and you are thinking of lying about your reveal, don't. We need to know the truth.

Off to dinner. Looking forward to playing with all of you.
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Re: Big, Medium, Small Mafia Game Thread Day 1

Postby Jordan767 » 02 Oct 2016, 03:34

UP, are you actually for or against size reveal?

Conq, what's your opinion on whether player size is alignment indicative?

SF, just to clarify, you're against size reveal, right?
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