Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

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Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby drillbit » 10 Oct 2019, 18:11

Game 160718
Spring 1905 orders.

Italy surrendered before the deadline, but had entered orders and those orders were carried out, resulting in the re-taking of Naples. :?
That doesn't seem quite right?

On page 18 of the downloaded rule book, under the heading Civil Disorder it states:-
'If you leave the game, or otherwise fail to submit orders on a given Spring or Fall turn, it is assumed that your government has collapsed. Your units all hold in position...'

Is this a bug?
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby Phlegmatic » 10 Oct 2019, 18:20

drillbit wrote:On page 18 of the downloaded rule book, under the heading Civil Disorder it states:-
'If you leave the game, or otherwise fail to submit orders on a given Spring or Fall turn, it is assumed that your government has collapsed. Your units all hold in position...'

Is this a bug?


Nope, not a bug. The key point is "fail to submit orders", not "leave the game".

In this instance the Italian government fell after the orders had been sent out, so unit commanders acted on those orders before they learned of the revolution/coup/alien invasion/impeachment.

The lesson - if a player surrenders, consider advertising for a replacement quickly just in case their predecessor did something you can't influence!
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby drillbit » 10 Oct 2019, 18:32

I have to disagree with your interpretation there. ;)

drillbit wrote:On page 18 of the downloaded rule book, under the heading Civil Disorder it states:-
'If you leave the game, or otherwise fail to submit orders on a given Spring or Fall turn, it is assumed that your government has collapsed. Your units all hold in position...'


It clearly says 'or' and not 'and' so regardless of whether orders have been entered or not, if you leave the game, 'it is assumed that your govenment has collapsed. Your units all hold...'

I'm not Turkey so it doesn't matter to me personally, just want to make sure my understanding is correct and the judge is working correctly.
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby super_dipsy » 10 Oct 2019, 21:44

It is a bit tricky. This has come up before and to be honest it is not clear cut. The problem with the written rules is they have lots of ambiguities, mistakes and indeed there are areas where they just don't say anything. But worst of all they are badly written.

The key on this one is the word 'otherwise'. It is saying that if you fail to submit orders because you left the game, or for any other reason, then your units are in CD. If it said 'if you leave the game or fail to submit orders, then it would mean that if you leave your units would be in CD. No doubt. But when it says if you leave or otherwise fail to submit orders, it is saying if you fail to submit order then (whether you failed because you have left the game or for some other reason) ...

Of course it could be argued the other way - that is what I meant by badly written. But on balance we judge the soundest interpretation is the one I have given above.
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby beowulf7 » 10 Oct 2019, 21:47

The word "otherwise" ties the two phrases together. If it was not there then ....ah, I see I'm just cloning what Dipsy said :)
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby drillbit » 10 Oct 2019, 22:40

The sentence grammar allows the sentence to be clearly understood.

Bracketing commas indicate the weaker part of the sentence which, if removed, still allows the main point of the sentence to be understood.
i.e. If you leave the game it is assumed that your government has collapsed.

'or otherwise' tells you that leaving the game means no orders are entered and explains that, even if you don't leave the game but fail to submit orders anyway the same rules apply.

I think the problem here is that, in this day and age, our undestanding of grammar is not what it used to be. :oops:

Are there any Professors of Grammar out there to clarify?
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby beowulf7 » 10 Oct 2019, 23:02

It is irrelevant what grammar guru's may say - what matters is the spirit of the law as intended by the great designer. His English was terrible! lol

This game is a simulation and you have to remember that the vision is easy - what would happen in real life? In this case we are saying that units are issued with orders and carry them out until they run out of orders. That does not, on the face of it, break any "rules of common sense".

To say otherwise you have to assume that unit commanders a) find out quickly about the surrender b) always refuse to carry out legitimate orders

This would have to include ALL orders! eg unit commanders would refuse to support each other in the face of enemy action. Would refuse to convoy units away from danger. This sounds far less realistic.

In terms of "Grammar" - we need to remember that language is not defined by grammar. Grammar is an attempt to codify a living, evolving and uncodifiable thing.

Finally can I refer you to the original rules which state that any order "however badly written" should be followed even it is not in the agreed format but is unambiguous. I think this shows that the game designer would not support adjudication by grammar guru's
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby super_dipsy » 11 Oct 2019, 07:19

The rule is really badly worded, but I think our interpretation at Playdip is the most sensible given the game we are playing. However, to avoid confusion I have added another line to the post that lists our interpretations of the rules where they are ambiguous, silent, conflicting or unclear / badly worded.
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Re: Italy enters orders, quits & gains a supply centre?

Postby Fatmo » 11 Oct 2019, 12:40

Yea, sometimes really weird stuff happens revolving around surrenders.

Here's a couple I remember from a long time ago.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=24370&p=345953#p345953

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=23384&p=322924#p322924
You don't know what I'm thinking...because I don't know what I'm doing.

Conq wrote:Fatmo — you are a relentless mountain stream, ever-flowing, slowly but surely carving away at the rock face below.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjEgjTfcEJk
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