Draw proposal message and error message in conflict

If the judge doesn't behave correctly or you found another problem, report it here!
Forum rules
Bugs
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: viewtopic.php?f=130&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. Members should read the ‘Bugs Forum Guidelines’ thread.
2. In rare situations members have been known to post false bug reports in order to affect the game. This is considered cheating.
3. Please don't post information that might be detrimental to the game, such as revealing the power who sent a message. If further information is required by Admin to investigate the bug, you will be asked to provide it.
If the game a bug may have occurred in is anonymous, including Gunboat and Public Press Only, it is best to send a Private Message to the SITE HELP! group or to post using the Dolph Shtoss account rather than break anonymity.

Draw proposal message and error message in conflict

Postby Pete the Great » 26 Mar 2019, 03:35

I tried to propose a 1 player draw in a game as the draw proposal button has a message that reads "select 1 or more countries" (I selected one after deselecting myself).

The proposal did not appear and I found the error message "Draw proposals must include at least 2 countries"

These messages contradict one another, so please either
A: Amend the proposal text to read "a minimum of two countries are required, select the countries you wish included" or
B: allow draws for one country only. (in other words a conceded solo)

The game situation has a 16 center power that will easily go to 18 or 19 centers by next fall.
User avatar
Pete the Great
 
Posts: 29
Joined: 10 Feb 2019, 03:00
Location: NY State, USA
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1055
All-game rating: 1057
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Draw proposal message and error message in conflict

Postby super_dipsy » 26 Mar 2019, 06:56

Yes, it is a bit confusing isn't it :)

You are right of course in that to be perfectly accurate then the text should indeed point out that at least two countries need to be selected. The issue is one of usability though.

The logic is that for start most people would naturally assume a 'draw' means more than one participant. It is counter-intuitive to think of a draw between one person ;). But in addition, your own country is always selected already. This is because again most people would assume that if they are offering a draw then they intend to be part of that draw. The reason you can deselect yourself is because you may want to use the proposal tactically, but it is relatively unusual.

So given this, what is the most helpful text to give? If we said that a minimum of two countries need to be selected, I can guarantee that there will be a fair number of players who will read that as two as well as themselves, not two including themselves. It is human nature - you are offering a draw, you don't think of deselecting yourself (you may not even know that is possible), so you think this means you have to tick 2 (extra) countries. The idea of the current text is given the likely assumption that you are already selected, saying you must select one country is the most informative way to avoid misleading players. The edge case (someone deselecting themselves and then trying to offer a one country draw, as you did) is caught by the error message, so there is no damage done.

We could of course give more text. We could explain that at least two countries need to be selected which may or may not include your own. But that is cumbersome and more confusing that the simple 'select 1 or more countries', and it is not in fact accurate either in all situations because in Versailles for example you cannot offer a draw with only your own countries in. In V, you play two countries, so technically you would have to amend the text to say that you have to have at least two countries selected and they must not both be yours. So again, we catch that edge case with an error message rather than making the text even harder to understand.

Just to repeat, you are totally accurate in that the message is not technically 100% accurate, but in terms of game play it seems to be the most helpful.
User avatar
super_dipsy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 12048
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 941
Timezone: GMT

Re: Draw proposal message and error message in conflict

Postby Mr.E » 26 Mar 2019, 09:40

Concessions are not part of the site's philosophy. Personally I think that's a shame but I understand it. Games are scored so they need to end in a solo or a draw. You wouldn't want a game where it had been conceded very early to affect ratings, when the concession may simply be to end the game as quickly as possible.

It can mean that a game will go on longer than it needs, however. A power might be on, say, 16 SCs and there not be the will among others to prevent the win. It might be interesting to see how many games there are that end this way, where players simply stop playing to prevent a solo. Of course, if it gets to that point, it doesn't matter where you finish in the game, so players could simply evacuate SCs and let the eventual soloist in.

I think, though, it could be something that was investigated. Would a single-person draw (what an awful term) be used? Would it need some kind of safeguard to prevent games being conceded ridiculously early?

Could it be trialed in No Rank games?
Respect neither opinions nor beliefs; only respect the person and the right to express them.
Play by the rules but be ferocious.
User avatar
Mr.E
Premium Member
 
Posts: 201
Joined: 20 Feb 2017, 09:27
Location: Yorkshire
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: 966
All-game rating: 1134
Timezone: GMT

Re: Draw proposal message and error message in conflict

Postby Woolgie » 26 Mar 2019, 11:13

I’m happy with it as it is but if it’s causing confusion...

Can the text automatically change to ‘select at least 2’ when and if a player deselect themselves.

In conjunction with that could you make the starting text ‘select at least 1 MORE’?
Jon Stark in Diplomacy of Ice and Fire III - Winter is coming
GMing my Star Wars variant
Still proud of my solo in Versailles Fog Chaos
Woolgie
Premium Member
 
Posts: 191
Joined: 15 Feb 2016, 19:43
Location: Chesterfield, UK
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1028
All-game rating: 926
Timezone: GMT

Re: Draw proposal message and error message in conflict

Postby super_dipsy » 26 Mar 2019, 15:35

Woolgie wrote:I’m happy with it as it is but if it’s causing confusion...

Can the text automatically change to ‘select at least 2’ when and if a player deselect themselves.

In conjunction with that could you make the starting text ‘select at least 1 MORE’?

It could be done of course, but having the text change depending on which boxes are clicked is not a simple job and frankly seems to me to be way over the top for something that does not seem to cause a big problem. I think the OP was more concerned with the lack of a Concession button than the wording, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, if people want to go down any of these routes, it really should be as a Suggestion and not in Bugs. Then it will get a proper airing and you can see what backing there is for it.
User avatar
super_dipsy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 12048
Joined: 04 Nov 2009, 17:43
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1000
All-game rating: 941
Timezone: GMT

Re: Draw proposal message and error message in conflict

Postby OldBaldGuy » 26 Mar 2019, 23:35

At least two players, including yourself, must be included in a draw proposal.
OldBaldGuy
Premium Member
 
Posts: 140
Joined: 14 Jun 2015, 02:15
Class: Diplomat
Standard rating: (1220)
All-game rating: (1247)
Timezone: GMT-6


Return to Bugs

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest