Is Versailles unbalanced?

What are your winning tactics? Kill them all? Discuss strategy for the classic and variant games using the classic map, or visit the sub-forums for the variant maps.
Forum rules
Strategy
In addition to the general Forum Guidelines (see here: http://www.playdiplomacy.com/forum/view ... 30&t=15441), there are additional rules for posting in this forum.
1. When discussing strategy, reference should not be made to any active game. This section of the Forum is for general strategy discussion, not specific situations within games.
2. It follows that links, images, game name and/or number should not be added to a post if the game is active.
Posts which refer to a specific situation in an active game, or which link directly to an active game, are subject to editing or removal.

Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby adebruyn666 » 11 Jun 2020, 13:24

Hi everyone,

I love the Versailles variant. The fact that you have to juggle with a Major power and a Minor one, guess who's playing who, etc., adds an interesting twist to the game.

However, I'm afraid the position of Poland is quite unbalanced. Stuck between Germany and USSR, with only one neutral center you can claim, the odds are really, really against you. I'm not saying it's hopeless, of course, it never is. But starting with Poland gives you a serious disadvantage. And I'm not even talking about Versailles in Gunboat!

I'd be very interested to see winning stats on the Versailles variant. I would venture to guess that Poland's success is way too small to qualify that variant as "fair".

Any thoughts or data on that?
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul." --- General Douglas MacArthur.
"Diplomacy: destroying friendship since 1959." --- My favorite t-shirt

Star Ambassador, Platinum Classicist, and a f*ing son of a bitch (according to ungrateful friends I introduced to the game)
User avatar
adebruyn666
Premium Member
 
Posts: 63
Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 21:29
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1402
All-game rating: 1839
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby Charleroi » 11 Jun 2020, 14:39

I’m not sure that major power statistics alone are particularly helpful here. Poland paired with Czech or Sweden, for example, has quite a comfortable position. A polish-Egyptian pairing is on quite a different position.
Charleroi
Premium Member
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 07 Jan 2016, 05:39
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1554
All-game rating: 1723
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby Strategus » 11 Jun 2020, 15:01

Charleroi wrote:I’m not sure that major power statistics alone are particularly helpful here. Poland paired with Czech or Sweden, for example, has quite a comfortable position. A polish-Egyptian pairing is on quite a different position.

That's not my experience... :(

Seriously, my understanding is that unless you have a very benevolent USSR, you have to attack them straight off, and get the edge of the board. Then you can do ok. But USSR knows that also, and so usually stabs. Poland's position is not balanced in my view, because of this tension. Germany is also difficult imo. France can also be tricky, esp if Spain is hostile.
The Devil makes work for idle forces

Better to have fought and lost, than never to have fought at all
Actual Platinum Classicist
I did WDC 2017

UK f2f Champion 2019
Just say "NO!" To carebears and kittens
User avatar
Strategus
Premium Member
 
Posts: 2814
Joined: 30 May 2015, 14:30
Location: England
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1546
All-game rating: 1652
Timezone: GMT

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby admiralspunky » 11 Jun 2020, 15:22

The classic game isn't balanced, either.

And what about Britain in Versailles? Everyone else has to deal with the minor powers that have sprung up in their backyard, but Britain gets 4 points all to himself, especially if he's allied with Sweden.
admiralspunky
Premium Member
 
Posts: 15
Joined: 11 Sep 2013, 17:38
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: 1006
All-game rating: 1054
Timezone: GMT-5

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby Charleroi » 11 Jun 2020, 16:28

I think it may be that Versailles, even more than traditional dip, is really about the relationship with other players. So it could make sense to talk about advantageous positions with Versailles gunboat, but that a lot of that will break down in practice.
Charleroi
Premium Member
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 07 Jan 2016, 05:39
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1554
All-game rating: 1723
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby Charleroi » 11 Jun 2020, 16:29

That said, I hate it when I draw Poland or Germany so who knows (but genuinely enjoy Italy both in Versailles and traditional maps).
Charleroi
Premium Member
 
Posts: 154
Joined: 07 Jan 2016, 05:39
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1554
All-game rating: 1723
Timezone: GMT-6

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby adebruyn666 » 11 Jun 2020, 17:06

Of course the classic version is not balanced either. For instance, on this website, Turkey claims 17% of the solo victories, vs. only 10% for Italy. It's a big gap, but it's not completely out of hand either.

On Versailles, I have a hard time imagining Poland claiming 10% of the solos... If it even got 3-4% I'd be surprised!

Anyone has statistics on that?
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul." --- General Douglas MacArthur.
"Diplomacy: destroying friendship since 1959." --- My favorite t-shirt

Star Ambassador, Platinum Classicist, and a f*ing son of a bitch (according to ungrateful friends I introduced to the game)
User avatar
adebruyn666
Premium Member
 
Posts: 63
Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 21:29
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1402
All-game rating: 1839
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby Thyrfing » 11 Jun 2020, 17:49

My experience comes mostly from gunboat games, so might not be entirely representative, but can give some insight from the tactical standpoint.

I think it is highly dependent on what minor you get. If it's close to your main power, it will be useful. Otherwise, not much. If you're the URSS and get Spain, it's not of much use. If you get Rumania, it's much better. Also I think Turkey and England's corner positions are reinforced because of the increased chaos that is generated in the rest of the board. I played 3 games recently and 1 was soloed by England and the other 2 by Turkey, with England as a close second. Both Turkish solos had Greece as the minor power. In one of these games England had Sweden as minor.
User avatar
Thyrfing
Premium Member
 
Posts: 2066
Joined: 29 Jan 2011, 01:16
Location: Barcelona
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1663
All-game rating: 1874
Timezone: GMT+1

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby drillbit » 11 Jun 2020, 18:51

I've just put together some Versailles stats.
I tried to paste them here but PlayDip doesn't want to make it look nice.
I filtered Ranked standard Versailles games, no Gunboat/FOW/Age of Empires etc.
There's only 111 games been played on this site, so not a massive dataset, 46 of which were Solo victories.
Minor powers were not looked at.

Some surprising results:-
For Solo's
Poland is worst 3/46 (6.52%)
Britain is not great either 4/46 (8.70%)
Turkey 5/46 (10.87%)
Germany 6/46 (13.04%)
France 7/46 (15.22%)
USSR is up there 10/46 (21.74%)
Italy is best 11/46 (23.91%)

For all Wins
France is worst 27/111 (24.32%)
Germany 30/111 (27.03%)
Poland 31/111 (27.93%)
Turkey 33/111 (29.73%)
Britain 35/111 (31.53%)
Italy 35/111 (31.53%)
USSR tops the lot 47/111 (42.34%)
drillbit
 
Posts: 36
Joined: 23 Apr 2012, 12:16
Class: Ambassador
Standard rating: (1284)
All-game rating: (1458)
Timezone: GMT

Re: Is Versailles unbalanced?

Postby adebruyn666 » 11 Jun 2020, 21:02

So, in the standard game, the best-to-worst ratio is about 1.8-to-1.

In Versailles, it's about 3.7-to-1.

That's what I was afraid of...

Thanks a million times for these stats, by the way. Really great!
"Age wrinkles the body. Quitting wrinkles the soul." --- General Douglas MacArthur.
"Diplomacy: destroying friendship since 1959." --- My favorite t-shirt

Star Ambassador, Platinum Classicist, and a f*ing son of a bitch (according to ungrateful friends I introduced to the game)
User avatar
adebruyn666
Premium Member
 
Posts: 63
Joined: 12 Aug 2012, 21:29
Class: Star Ambassador
Standard rating: 1402
All-game rating: 1839
Timezone: GMT+1

Next

Return to Diplomacy Strategy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests